Death

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Re: Death

Postby bentj96 » Wed May 11, 2011 12:17 am

Tenzen12 wrote:Faith is all that is needed, but it doesn't mean there aren't reasonable proofs. Problem is that people like belive that sciencific theories are only possible and this belives are on level of religion. Benj96 try pursue true instead of blindly belive either in God nor Science and if you'll find that God realy existi it would be enought proof that afterlife exist as well.


You guys are still trying to veer off-topic, and I have no clue what you mean. You seem to missing a few words there.

Wait just one second before you say faith again, then you will see why it's either the wrong word, or religion isn't based on faith, but rather hope.

Faith: Belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.


Now hope. Hope: The feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best: to give up hope.

What we wish is true, or want to be true. Rather odd in my opinion. Why is that science at least has some proof, at least statistically but religion is still such a big thing?

Wouldn't you agree that "faith" is based off of despair? When we feel like there is no hope, we rely on faith because we have no other choice. For humans, religion could be some type of mass delusion derived from our instinct to make ourselves feel hopeful and therefore, want continue our lives and most likely reproduce.

On the other hand, some religions could be true. But which? God teaches us that there is only one God. The Romans believed there were many, as did the Greek and the Egyptians. Buddhism teaches of Nirvana and multiple afterlifes and reincarnations and even more than one level of heaven and hell. Romans were taught the act of sacrifice to produce favorable crops and a better chance of pregnancy. Buddhists are taught to improve in each life until they reach Nirvana. All in the hope for something better.

Also, you can never say one religion is true and another is untrue because that would prove that higher beings are possible and possibly disproving it at the same time because many religions don't over lap.

Finally, evolution is only deemed untrue because certain things aren't very clear and obviously, how complex life has become. Religion on the other hand, has no proof. Maybe I'm missing something here, but compared to how unlikely it is that fossils just happened to line up in terms of depth in the ground, line up in terms of how old carbon-dating says they are, and line up from simple to complex?
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Re: Death

Postby Frondish17 » Wed May 11, 2011 3:51 am

@ benj96 - wow. This is getting intense. I am no scientist and don't pretend to be one, neither am I a theologist, but I can tell you that carbon-dating is difficult to prove as true because scientists use a book about the age of rocks to determine the age of the bone fossilized within, and use a book about the age of bones to determine the age of the rock surrounding it. Circular reasoning. Also, it is possible to declare that one religion is right and another wrong. The same way you say that 2+2=4 and not 5. You are not discriminating against 5 because you acknowledge it is the wrong answer. You are simply stating facts. It is obvious, however, that we are beating our heads against brick walls trying to reach one another. Our beliefs/faiths/hopes/whatever you call them are too conflicting. So: I will believe my way, you can believe yours. Just know that Jesus loves you, benj96, and the fact that you do not choose to acknowledge His presence does not mean He is not real.

@ Tenzen, wow, very true about the scientific beliefs taking the place of a religion for many people who claim no religion. Honestly, people who cling to the idea of evolution are literally believing it as firmly and as personally as any religious person believes in his or her deity. Smart smart. :D
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Re: Death

Postby bentj96 » Wed May 11, 2011 5:53 am

Frondish17 wrote:@ benj96 - wow. This is getting intense. I am no scientist and don't pretend to be one, neither am I a theologist, but I can tell you that carbon-dating is difficult to prove as true because scientists use a book about the age of rocks to determine the age of the bone fossilized within, and use a book about the age of bones to determine the age of the rock surrounding it. Circular reasoning. Also, it is possible to declare that one religion is right and another wrong. The same way you say that 2+2=4 and not 5. You are not discriminating against 5 because you acknowledge it is the wrong answer. You are simply stating facts. It is obvious, however, that we are beating our heads against brick walls trying to reach one another. Our beliefs/faiths/hopes/whatever you call them are too conflicting. So: I will believe my way, you can believe yours. Just know that Jesus loves you, benj96, and the fact that you do not choose to acknowledge His presence does not mean He is not real.

@ Tenzen, wow, very true about the scientific beliefs taking the place of a religion for many people who claim no religion. Honestly, people who cling to the idea of evolution are literally believing it as firmly and as personally as any religious person believes in his or her deity. Smart smart. :D


True, it is circular reasoning, but so is religion. Not in the same sense, but still circular reasoning. It is possible to declare one religion is right, but that would mean that gods are possible, therefore making all other religions possible even though almost all religions say that only one religion is possible.

It's like going back in time and killing your grandfather. He is dead, so you never existed, so therefore you did not go back to kill him. It's a paradox.

@ Tenzen, it's true that some are clinging to the idea of evolution, but I'm not doing that at all. That wasn't even my point.

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Re: Death

Postby Tenzen12 » Wed May 11, 2011 6:03 am

OK I will be frank. I don't see any real scientific knowledge on your side. You assuming proofs that doesn't necessary exist. Evolution theory, Big bang theory have one word common and that is theory (it means there aren't proofs be sure it is true). I think about myself that I am fluent in common scienfic knowledge at least more than average person cause I am interested in these things (as dark metter, astronomy, a little biology, technology and others). If you want we can have discussion by messages, cause as was said we are too much off topic (and two against one). Just let me said, the most of science is about disprooving old sciencific knowledge and many things that are considered as facts are already outdated.

BTW: Big bang theory isn't bad at all (though there is so many version that it can be hardly considered one theory).
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Re: Death

Postby bentj96 » Thu May 12, 2011 2:47 am

Tenzen12 wrote:OK I will be frank. I don't see any real scientific knowledge on your side. You assuming proofs that doesn't necessary exist. Evolution theory, Big bang theory have one word common and that is theory (it means there aren't proofs be sure it is true). I think about myself that I am fluent in common scienfic knowledge at least more than average person cause I am interested in these things (as dark metter, astronomy, a little biology, technology and others). If you want we can have discussion by messages, cause as was said we are too much off topic (and two against one). Just let me said, the most of science is about disprooving old sciencific knowledge and many things that are considered as facts are already outdated.

BTW: Big bang theory isn't bad at all (though there is so many version that it can be hardly considered one theory).


Clearly Tenzen, you are getting quite impatient. I know much more than you think I do. I think you need to rethink what you've just posted and review what I've said so far. I never used any science as proof at all. I never said that the fossil record is clear, because it is not. What scientists have to date is quite sketchy. We think whales evolved from wolf-like creatures because of some random leg bone in the desert.

I did say that it's pretty clear that Earth is not 10, 000 years old. Any idiot would agree with me unless they have been brainwashed. Maybe radiometric dating is off...but by 1 billion years? I don't think so.

Some say the Bible isn't literal, but that would mean we can't assume a single thing we are assuming now. Who is to say that the whole thing isn't just a metaphor?

Like I said. So are we afraid to die or do we feel like death isn't so bad after all because we have faith that God exists?
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Re: Death

Postby Frondish17 » Thu May 12, 2011 3:39 am

bentj96 wrote:
Tenzen12 wrote:OK I will be frank. I don't see any real scientific knowledge on your side. You assuming proofs that doesn't necessary exist. Evolution theory, Big bang theory have one word common and that is theory (it means there aren't proofs be sure it is true). I think about myself that I am fluent in common scienfic knowledge at least more than average person cause I am interested in these things (as dark metter, astronomy, a little biology, technology and others). If you want we can have discussion by messages, cause as was said we are too much off topic (and two against one). Just let me said, the most of science is about disprooving old sciencific knowledge and many things that are considered as facts are already outdated.

BTW: Big bang theory isn't bad at all (though there is so many version that it can be hardly considered one theory).


Clearly Tenzen, you are getting quite impatient. I know much more than you think I do. I think you need to rethink what you've just posted and review what I've said so far. I never used any science as proof at all. I never said that the fossil record is clear, because it is not. What scientists have to date is quite sketchy. We think whales evolved from wolf-like creatures because of some random leg bone in the desert.

I did say that it's pretty clear that Earth is not 10, 000 years old. Any idiot would agree with me unless they have been brainwashed. Maybe radiometric dating is off...but by 1 billion years? I don't think so.

Some say the Bible isn't literal, but that would mean we can't assume a single thing we are assuming now. Who is to say that the whole thing isn't just a metaphor?

Like I said. So are we afraid to die or do we feel like death isn't so bad after all because we have faith that God exists?


Okay, this is getting really annoying now, and rather personal. I think the rules of this forum was that we play nice. You basically just called me a brainwashed idiot, so yeah, this is getting personal. To get back on topic, I personally am not afraid of death because I believe - in fact, I know - that God exists. Simple as that.
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Re: Death

Postby bentj96 » Thu May 12, 2011 5:46 am

Frondish17 wrote:
bentj96 wrote:
Tenzen12 wrote:OK I will be frank. I don't see any real scientific knowledge on your side. You assuming proofs that doesn't necessary exist. Evolution theory, Big bang theory have one word common and that is theory (it means there aren't proofs be sure it is true). I think about myself that I am fluent in common scienfic knowledge at least more than average person cause I am interested in these things (as dark metter, astronomy, a little biology, technology and others). If you want we can have discussion by messages, cause as was said we are too much off topic (and two against one). Just let me said, the most of science is about disprooving old sciencific knowledge and many things that are considered as facts are already outdated.

BTW: Big bang theory isn't bad at all (though there is so many version that it can be hardly considered one theory).


Clearly Tenzen, you are getting quite impatient. I know much more than you think I do. I think you need to rethink what you've just posted and review what I've said so far. I never used any science as proof at all. I never said that the fossil record is clear, because it is not. What scientists have to date is quite sketchy. We think whales evolved from wolf-like creatures because of some random leg bone in the desert.

I did say that it's pretty clear that Earth is not 10, 000 years old. Any idiot would agree with me unless they have been brainwashed. Maybe radiometric dating is off...but by 1 billion years? I don't think so.

Some say the Bible isn't literal, but that would mean we can't assume a single thing we are assuming now. Who is to say that the whole thing isn't just a metaphor?

Like I said. So are we afraid to die or do we feel like death isn't so bad after all because we have faith that God exists?


Okay, this is getting really annoying now, and rather personal. I think the rules of this forum was that we play nice. You basically just called me a brainwashed idiot, so yeah, this is getting personal. To get back on topic, I personally am not afraid of death because I believe - in fact, I know - that God exists. Simple as that.


Actually no, I'm not calling you a brainwashed idiot. Technically... I'm not. I'm pretty sure you never said you believed that anyways. And saying the Earth is not 10,000 years old is rather pointless because there is nothing to back it up. It's like saying fossils are all fakes, carbon-dating doesn't work at all, all those processes that form the Earth don't exist. Now tell me, is that what you are saying? If man discovered fire 36, 000 years ago, how could man only be 10, 000 years old?
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Re: Death

Postby Frondish17 » Thu May 12, 2011 3:03 pm

no, the fossils themselves are not fakes, but the techniques used for dating them are flawed. Carbon-dating does not make sense - being circular reasoning that gets you nowhere if you whittle down to it, and the process by which the earth was formed was by God saying "let there be light". Also, you are using another rhetorically flawed strategy in your quote: "If man discovered fire 36,000 years ago, then how could the world be 10,000 years old?" This is like saying "If point A is true, then point B is also true" while we are arguing the validity of point A in the first place.

However, this is going way off topic. I would be happy to continue this on the creation vs. evolution thread if you want, but we are supposed to be sticking to death so - yeah. Anyway.
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Re: Death

Postby Kitsy » Thu May 12, 2011 4:39 pm

Lol guys, go ahead and debate off-topic. I mean, it's really not *that* off-topic, and your debates (well, most of them) are still coherent.
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Re: Death

Postby ILiveForTheDay » Thu May 12, 2011 8:36 pm

I haven't read the whole thing, just skimmed. What I would say, is that there are no dates in the Bible. What is does say is that a day can be a hundred years for God, and a hundred years a day. When it says 'On the first day' you can either take it literally, or as one of God's days. It's not meant as a scientific guide (Although you can always take the example of that guy who took it literally, and found currents in the ocean because he believed Psalm 8. Mfph.)

For me, even without the Bible, I've witnessed too many 'coincidences' to just write it off. Heard too many testimonies to be able to say that there is no God. So, although I'm going to stumble through life messing up along the way, I'm also going to be able to go to my death whenever that is, happy in the knowledge that I'm going to be looked after.

But as I think. . . Bentj said up there, there is the bit of faith that's to do with fear. We all want to answer the questions we don't have answers, even if you don't really believe they exist, you'd much rather go to Heaven than Hell (Or, the idea of it, or whatever). There was the story of the Indian lady (I think it could really help in life if I could remember the names) who took a bucket of water in one hand, and a burning stick in the other, and when asked what she was doing answered "I'm going to wash out Hell, and then, once I'm done, I'm going to burn down Heaven. People should love God (Maybe it was the gods?) because of him, not because they're scared of him, or wanting the prize."
In some aspect, I agree with her. It should be more about having a personal relationship with God, and wanting to do what he says because it's right (even atheists can't say that the things Jesus taught -Love, tolerence, obedience- are wrong and make the world a worse place) than being terrified of what happens after you die. You should want to be a better person without any carrot or stick at the end.
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I have no idea where I just went with that last paragraph. The Indian lady's been bothering me for a while now, and it just felt good to get it all out and written down. Thoughts spewing forth. Feel free to disregard it, it didn't really add anything to the topic.
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Re: Death

Postby bentj96 » Thu May 12, 2011 11:45 pm

Frondish17 wrote:no, the fossils themselves are not fakes, but the techniques used for dating them are flawed. Carbon-dating does not make sense - being circular reasoning that gets you nowhere if you whittle down to it, and the process by which the earth was formed was by God saying "let there be light". Also, you are using another rhetorically flawed strategy in your quote: "If man discovered fire 36,000 years ago, then how could the world be 10,000 years old?" This is like saying "If point A is true, then point B is also true" while we are arguing the validity of point A in the first place.

However, this is going way off topic. I would be happy to continue this on the creation vs. evolution thread if you want, but we are supposed to be sticking to death so - yeah. Anyway.


Although what you say is true, you are blindly ignoring the facts. As I said, do you think carbon-dating is off by 1 billion years? Protists first appeared, according to radiometric dating, 1 billion years ago. 10, 000 and 1 billion are so far apart... In fact 10, 000 time 10, 000 isn't even 1 billion.

It's nothing like saying point A is true, so B is true. You can't even compare it. Even though A can be questioned, it is is not off by that much. Not by more than 26, 000 years at least.

I totally agree with you, but the differences are so enormous that error isn't even in question.

Finally... I keep bringing up the subject of humans finding relief in religion and nobody reads it.

@ILiveForTheDay, I'd like to point out one thing about your theory that the Bible isn't literal. We can say that Genesis wasn't literal at all, but who is to say the whole Bible is literal? God may be a metaphor for something else entirely.

I've thought about this quite a bit in the past... What if some ruler of an unknown country lost in history decided that his land needed some control? He just hires a bunch of scholars, pays them huge amounts of money, and get them to write the Bible, or whatever religion it may be. I don't ever study the Bible, so I have no clue if there is anything against this.
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Re: Death

Postby Frondish17 » Fri May 13, 2011 3:57 am

@ I Live For The Day - lol that is a very interesting thought-starter what with the Indian woman and everything. I agree with your theory - it should be about a relationship, but there is definitely that sense of reward/punishment that keeps us on track. Kind of like a little kid: they're taught to obey their parents because if they don't they will get punished. Kids obey their parents because they love their parents and want their approval for the relationship aspect in and of itself, but the prospect of a time out, being grounded, or having the car keys taken away definitely play a factor in that relationship ;P Also, what you say about the literal truths of the creation in Genesis is interesting. And while it could technically be a thousand years per day, it is believed that that is where the week came from: God worked for six days and on the seventh day he rested - hence, a week. But I see where you're coming from, and it's certainly interesting. Also, yes, I know what you mean about that there are too many testimonies to refute the possibility of an afterlife. I've watched whole documentaries on people who were revived after being technically "dead" and their out-of-body experiences. Do you know that this one woman died in the hospital and then they revived her and she told them that her grandson's (who was in the waiting room in another part of the hospital and had not yet been in to see her) socks didn't match, and that there was something (a hat or something) on the hospital roof? They checked up on both, and she was correct. How on earth can one explain that?

@ benj96 - well, that's one conspiracy theory I haven't heard. However, I don't exactly see how the Bible would help a single king's rule . . . I mean, why on earth wouldn't he just claim a vision from a god like all the other ancient rulers did - why bother making up so many different stories about people that would have nothing to do with advancing his rule? Like David and Jonathan's relationship - that was simply a documented time in history, and is presented as such. What possible advantage could that story be to a king who wanted power? Also, I know you might not like hearing this, but I hope your group of scholars included several prophets because the Bible does prophecy. Plus the fact that it actually was not all written at one time (I hope you knew this at least) and there are events written about in all separate books that are recorded in secular historical books by people like the famous Jewish historian Josephus. However, I do agree with the fact that people in in general find solace in religion. That is why God gave us religion, to promise us a better life after this if we believe and urge us to believe by using the threat of hell, like ILiveForTheDay said.
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Re: Death

Postby Tenzen12 » Fri May 13, 2011 6:19 am

Unknown nation you are talking about is Israel. Nomads tribe without any kings until they were setled several hundred years on its current territory. And in Bible was said that change of establishment into kingdoms were wrong choice in first place.

In genesis (first book in bible) is said that God first created world and only after that he created day and night. That mean there were undetermined period of time before counting began.

I study both bible and science so I can say there aren't unanswerable contradictions, while you yourself admited that you don't know much about our conception and just assuming based on your belives. To have right judge you have to know what are you talking about.

BTW there is many scientist, mathematics, geologists, paleontologists who obviously know more than we both together who belives in God existence and afterlife. I will not try you persuade that they are right, just that they have knowledge and still able do it.
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Re: Death

Postby ILiveForTheDay » Fri May 13, 2011 3:29 pm

Like Tenzen said, many very degree-d up scientists believe in God and the afterlife. Francis Collins comes to mind, and I know there are other ones (The name thing again. It's a problem)

As for your conspiracy theory - Do you mean like the Greeks? Where the Illiad was written and the king ordered the entire population to worship these new gods? Maybe not the Illiad. . . I only skimmed when reading it.
The arguments against that would be, like Frondish said, the fact it was written by several different authors, growing over a period of time. Not to mention the longevity of the religion. The Jewish faith has been around for thousands of years, and the Christian faith about two thousand. If you look at the Greek gods, they had their time and are gone and done. (Isn't Islam from the Jews? Ishmael being sent out with Hagaai and then founding the race that brought us Mohammed?)
But the main thing about the Bible is that it's a matter of faith. You see what you want to see. You can read theological arguments until they're coming out of your ears, but at the end of the day it's a personal choice to believe or not.

And Frondish, I like your likening of the Indian women problem to a child. Makes sense.
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Frondish17
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Re: Death

Postby Frondish17 » Fri May 13, 2011 9:04 pm

thanks, ILiveForTheDay :) Yes, you are correct, Islam did come from Ishmael, and there are some amazing biblical applications to be derived from that specific fact, but I won't go into that right now.

Also, Tenzen, you made some extremely good points, especially about how God said within the Bible that the Israelites shouldn't have kings in the first place, but it only happened because they rebelled against His wishes. *high five* Also, I like your point about the fact that God made night and day while he was creating the world and so the whole days/years theory is kind of null and void.

Like Tenzen said, there are contradictions that people will not be able to answer, at least not right off the bat or immediately. But this is where faith comes into play, you know? Also, I would recommend, benj96, that you at least read the Bible before you start voicing conspiracy theories about it.
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