"The Doctor's Dilemma"

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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby opalkoboi » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:26 pm

if it was a scientist about to cure cancer, surely people could argue that maybe being a nice guy and all that is more important than a cure for cancer as whether we are happy influences our everyday lives, yet cancer doesn't. And the treatments now are very good, and many won't ever be affected by dangerous cancer, and the period in your life in which you have cancer is very small compared to the time you don't.

Also I do see Hyun's logic, and it's a good valid point.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:25 pm

opalkoboi wrote:if it was a scientist about to cure cancer, surely people could argue that maybe being a nice guy and all that is more important than a cure for cancer as whether we are happy influences our everyday lives, yet cancer doesn't. And the treatments now are very good, and many won't ever be affected by dangerous cancer, and the period in your life in which you have cancer is very small compared to the time you don't.

Also I do see Hyun's logic, and it's a good valid point.

No...no one could argue that because that argument is severely flawed. Cancer may not affect everyone, but this nice guy isn't going to either. However, even being generous about how social this guy is, cancer(and subsequently the cure) is going to influence more people than he will ever dream of.

If it was a cure for cancer, I'm pretty sure most people would value saving lives over a happy influence in a small amount of people's lives.
The nice guy is only primarily influencing the people in his social network.
The scientists is influencing the families and social networks of people all around the world, spanning different countries and continents - and then he's directly influencing millions of people in the future. Instead of worrying about someone dying of cancer, they will be happy that their friend or their brother or wife is cured. Instead of paying for constant treatment, they have a financial burden lifted off the back of their family or friends with a final treatment that cures them. (depending on how the cure works)

The cure for cancer would have both a bigger and a better impact on society.
The genius artist may have a bigger impact, but not intrinsically a better one.
Because art is not intrinsically good.

Yes, the cure for cancer may save the lives of horrible people as well, but alot of people believe that a human life is invaluable no matter who it belongs to. We have been socially influenced into believing that killing is wrong(because it goes against the norm and the law most of the time) and that saving a life is right(this is what they make movies about, heroes are celebrated and honored).

Hyun's logic can also be applied to Hitler and Justin Bieber. ('-' ) However, when tweaked a little, it makes sense.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby opalkoboi » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:47 pm

I was only saying someone could argue along those lines, I wasn't arguing it...i was making the point that people can argue the humanity vs history/culture. or, if you prefer, the idea that the people inderividually don't matter but what we accomplish does.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:52 am

opalkoboi wrote:I was only saying someone could argue along those lines, I wasn't arguing it...i was making the point that people can argue the humanity vs history/culture. or, if you prefer, the idea that the people inderividually don't matter but what we accomplish does.

I don't know what you mean, or how your previous post was supposed to be along these lines.

All I saw you saying was that someone hypothetically could argue that the nice guy has a bigger impact on people's everyday's lives than the cure for cancer since not everyone has cancer and other rationals.

Please explain to me how that means what you just said.
And what you're currently talking about.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby opalkoboi » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:46 am

XDXDXDXDXD I don't think i know myself...

What I was saying is you coudl argue what the human race accomplishes (eg fantastic amazing ect works of art AKA letting the artist live) could be considered more important than the inderviduals in life. Let's face it the majority of people don't and won't matter that much in the grand scheme of things and in helping the human race achieve things. If you get what I'm saying (which no one probably does so I'll crawl back under my rock).
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:24 pm

Okay.

I just don't see the importance of art, or else that point would be valid.
Accomplishments are good and all, but some are better than others.

Einstein's advances in physics had significant impacts in the scientific world. And we wouldn't have technology that improves our standard of living, today, if he hadn't made those theories - I'm assuming.

Hitler managed to persecute and kill millions of jews and provoke a World War.
If he hadn't done that, I'm sure a millions of more jews would be alive. Not a good/important accomplishment, imo.

This art guy is making brilliant, genius art. He might impact the art world, the people who browse art galleries, and gain more social connections exposing his douchey attitude to more people.
He is in no way improving society. Art is art.

Both Hitler and this art guy had accomplishments...just they weren't good or important.

The nice guy will impact people in his social circle in a good way. The art guy will make pretentious people feel better for the minute or so they spend pondering his art work. Hitler was a douchebag, and murdered millions.

That's the difference I see.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby Kitsy » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:27 pm

But you're being incredibly narrow minded in your view on the artists's impact on other people.

And I quote: "The art guy will make pretentious people feel better for the minute or so they spend pondering his art work."

Now I understand that you personally don't feel that art is important, but thousands of people do. Art doesn't just affect "pretentious" people for a moment or so - it can change people's lives, it can have a deep and meaningful impact on someone. So, I understand why *you* personally wouldn't pick the artist, because you don't feel art is important. But I think you should have the decency to try and understand why other people would save him, because art is a very, very important part of humanity as a whole.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby Tenzen12 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:08 am

To be frank,, it would depend on how much that jerk artist would be jerk, if I recognised his ability (his drawing would suit my taste, nothing more needed) and were able bear with his personality I may cure him. And if I realy hated him personaly I would let him die for sake of mankind.

About nice guy, there is swarm of nice guys, when one or two are gone who care, next time I woul help nice guy instead for good balance if I feel like.

(I know it sound biased, but if there isn't any obviously right answer, isn't alright just do whatever I want?).
Last edited by Tenzen12 on Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:12 am

@Kitsy: How am I being narrowminded?

And I quote: "Why do you consider art so important?"
And I quote: "Don't apologize, I just think you value art too much. If you do, fine."
If she, and you, feel it's important - than fine. I'm just curious as to why. I've given my opinions and I've asked for an explanation. And I've said it's fine if she values it more than I do.

The same can be said of video games and modeling and really anything. People may have a passion for, and gain a deep impact from, many things. I know some people will look at a piece and percieve something about the artist's emotions or soul. I know some people may look at a piece and connect with it, like it applies to their lives. Even when they do, it's not going to have the same impact for long.

Nontheless, at the end of the day, most people are going to look at it - say "impressive" - and then look at the next one. For most people, it's going to be a quick, fleeting visual pleasure. It's not going to affect them.

There is nothing about art that is intrinsically good or positive. A car accident or near death experience can have a deep impact on a person - it can change a person's life - but it isn't intrinsically good/positive either.

Why is art a very important part of humanity as a whole? Because art is supposed to demonstrate our humanity? Because it's supposed to be an expression of our soul? All art shows is that we've evolved to the point that we can fill our lives with intrinsically unimportant things, and people will use their higher brainfunction to percieve it in an abstract, philosophical way - and then those intrinsically unimportant things become profound because we make it so.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:46 am

First, Cezen, you are comparing art to Hitler. When you compare them you say they both weren't good or important. Actually, Hitler was very important. It's a big part of history, and changed a lot in the world. Just because it wasn't, in what I believe to be almost everyone's opinion, good doesn't mean it wasn't important.

You also say he, or his art, has no way of improving society. "Art is art." Yet previously you say about Einstein's achievements for technology and how we wouldn't have what we do today without him. Therefore I can reason you put science above art. You also think technological advances matter to society, but art doesn't. yet as we have heard before this art is so magnificent that it "will make pretentious people feel better for the minute or so they spend pondering his art work". Yet technology can have many bad influences on people. If you want an example, I can give a specific one if you want to be picky later, think of people who become violent due to violent games and films. Sometimes to extremes. Also people can get electrocuted ect.

As a non-art lover yourself (understatement I know) it's obvious you you'd think people would take one glance and say 'impressive' and move on. Many anti-art people would. But as we already mentioned, it is stunning art that can make practically everyone connect with it and make them feel better ect.
And again, you are now comparing art to a near death experience. Saying that like a near death experience, it isn't 'intrinsically good/positive'.

You also say, "we've evolved to the point that we can fill our lives with intrinsically unimportant things". Didn't you say earlier that people can be inspired by video games and modelling? Aren't they pointless too? You say other things are important but art isn't, so yes, you are being narrow-minded. Art is important and means a lot to many people, and in this case of the jerk artist maybe his paintings could even mean something to someone like you.

Of course, when it comes to me although I can see the reasoning behind saving the artist fully, I'd still save the nice guy. Why? Because as I've said many times, we're all very simple and we just want to be happy and we are made happy very easily. Also, one thing I care about as much as you do about art Cezen, is the future. We should just be happy now and f**k the future, who cares what we have accomplished as a race? Happiness is a big enough accomplishment for all of us.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby Sorcha » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:52 am

Art isn't always just for expression though, it can be seen as reflection of the time and society, and depending on what medium you use it can also tell you a lot about the state of technology and what not at the point in time it was made.

But yes if it was a scientist whose life is on the line, then their research and what not can affect and save millions of lives, but to what end? Everyone is going to die anyway. You eliminate the suffering so people can live meaningful lives, and for a lot of people, art is one of those things that makes life meaningful. That probably did not come out coherently enough.

Anyway, I digress. I agree with the idea that it wouldn't be for me to judge who to save. But if I had to, regardless of occupation, if the artist is alone and didn't have any other personal relationships, I'd save the nice guy with the family.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:26 am

opalkoboi wrote:First, Cezen, you are comparing art to Hitler. When you compare them you say they both weren't good or important. Actually, Hitler was very important. It's a big part of history, and changed a lot in the world. Just because it wasn't, in what I believe to be almost everyone's opinion, good doesn't mean it wasn't important.

You also say he, or his art, has no way of improving society. "Art is art." Yet previously you say about Einstein's achievements for technology and how we wouldn't have what we do today without him. Therefore I can reason you put science above art. You also think technological advances matter to society, but art doesn't. yet as we have heard before this art is so magnificent that it "will make pretentious people feel better for the minute or so they spend pondering his art work". Yet technology can have many bad influences on people. If you want an example, I can give a specific one if you want to be picky later, think of people who become violent due to violent games and films. Sometimes to extremes. Also people can get electrocuted ect.

As a non-art lover yourself (understatement I know) it's obvious you you'd think people would take one glance and say 'impressive' and move on. Many anti-art people would. But as we already mentioned, it is stunning art that can make practically everyone connect with it and make them feel better ect.
And again, you are now comparing art to a near death experience. Saying that like a near death experience, it isn't 'intrinsically good/positive'.

You also say, "we've evolved to the point that we can fill our lives with intrinsically unimportant things". Didn't you say earlier that people can be inspired by video games and modelling? Aren't they pointless too? You say other things are important but art isn't, so yes, you are being narrow-minded. Art is important and means a lot to many people, and in this case of the jerk artist maybe his paintings could even mean something to someone like you.

Of course, when it comes to me although I can see the reasoning behind saving the artist fully, I'd still save the nice guy. Why? Because as I've said many times, we're all very simple and we just want to be happy and we are made happy very easily. Also, one thing I care about as much as you do about art Cezen, is the future. We should just be happy now and f**k the future, who cares what we have accomplished as a race? Happiness is a big enough accomplishment for all of us.

1. Yes, I compared art to Hitler in the sense that they both don't contribute something positive to society. Point? Hitler didn't make a positive contribution to society, and in that sense everything he did was neither good or important. Sure, it's important remember as a mistake and horrible event - just like slavery and every other mistake of history's past. But it didn't make an important contribution to society.

2. Technology having a bad influence on society is irrelevent in the sense that it improves society's standard of living. We are living longer, curing diseases, exploring space, and ect. Our species is advancing on a whole because of society. People can get electrocuted? Yeah, there are risks with almost everything we do in life. You realize that technology includes circuit breakers that protect us when lightning strikes?
People can get sick from vaccinations, but I'm not gonna pretend to argue that this means that vaccines aren't good.
Please come back with less ridiculous examples.
Individual people, based on their own personal morals, can use technology to do good or bad - nontheless technology improves our quality of life.

3. Yeah, I compared art to a near death experience in the sense that both can have an emotional, deep impact on someone's life. What's your point? Either you understand my reasoning or no, but glossing over my point to make an irrelevant statement is starting to bore me to death
Btw- I'm not anti-art, I'm practical. In fact, I used to be an artist.
I'm no more anti-art than I am anti-videogames, which I play as a hobby - yet videogames are just as trivial as art.

4. Obviously what I said went way over your head. Like wayyyyyyyyyyyy over your head.
I mentioned videogames and modeling because those things are blatantly as, if not more, unimportant than art - yet they can do the same thing that people are saying art does. They can have an important impact on people's lives - people can connect to them in a passionate way. So no, I wasn't being narrowminded. You just failed - miserabley - to understand my point.
"The same can be said of video games and modeling and really anything. People may have a passion for, and gain a deep impact from, many things"
^Reread this till you understand it. Then read it one more time.

5. "Of course, when it comes to me-"
By this point in your post, I had stopped caring about when it comes to you and what you think. Fyi.
I just want that officially noted.

For the most part, happiness is fleeting. It disappears with time. No one accomplishes happiness, because it isn't a constant or permenent state. The best you can do is contentment. Nontheless, your naive idea of "sterling silver butter knife the future" will probably disappear when you have children or a midlife crisis.
But anyways, I suggest you just read this article.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19376_5- ... wrong.html
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:19 am

I feel like I was mean.
Sorry for being an ass. :blush:

Sorcha, I'll edit this post to address yours when I lose lazy.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby opalkoboi » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:03 am

Cezen if you're going to be a git then fine by me. You're obviously incapable of debating without insulting me and being an arse so f*ck off basically, if you're gonna be like this I'm not debating with you. Also, in debates you do have to have a small interest in others opinion but your own. You just obviously don't understand the word debate. So yeah, f*ck you and f*ck off.
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Re: "The Doctor's Dilemma"

Postby cezen » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:52 am

^Hahaha you're not gonna debate with me? What will I ever do.... :0
...My life is over ;_;, Oh noooooooooo ='(
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@Sorcha:
"Art isn't always just for expression though, it can be seen as reflection of the time and society, and depending on what medium you use it can also tell you a lot about the state of technology and what not at the point in time it was made.

But yes if it was a scientist whose life is on the line, then their research and what not can affect and save millions of lives, but to what end? Everyone is going to die anyway. You eliminate the suffering so people can live meaningful lives, and for a lot of people, art is one of those things that makes life meaningful. That probably did not come out coherently enough.
"
I'll give certain art the benifit of a doubt, like Architecture - though that also involves mathematical knowledge.
Though, I'm not sure if the idea that art correlates society's journey through time gives it an important enough role. Language does too. Literature. Ect.

The fact that everyone's going to die eventually doesn't take away from cures and medicine keeps us alive longer and how important that is. For the most part, I hope people will eventually discover that their are much more meaningful things in life - like their personal relationships, friends, and family.
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