Was Hitler really evil?

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby levina » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:04 am

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:53 am

Lol, and what makes you say they aren't realistic? I mean, there are people in history that have acted precisely as Opal and Voldemort acted. There are Damon Kronskis and Extinctionist-like people out there. People have watched other people getting tortured for entertainment, or fight battles to the death, that was what the Hunger Games I think was based around the idea of. (Wasn't it?) There were the people of the capital who were naive and didn't really understand the suffering that was being inflicted on others, yeah, but there were the people like Snow who knew what it was, and chose to go through with it anyway.

So as far as their actions go, I would say those characters are very realistic. Maybe not common, but then, neither are heroic figures who would risk themselves for others, like Harry, and Holly. You can believe that deep down a real person's thoughts might have been different, but according to the evidence we can see (their actions, their writings, etc.), these are exactly the kind of people they were, people who cared nothing about others, and only themselves. They were not born the way they were, rather they made a series of choices throughout there lives that turned them into basically little more than monsters.

Hm, well, on good and evil, then I guess that's where we're different. (; I definitely believe in an absolute good, and an absolute evil. There are shades of gray surrounding motivations for what people do, yes, (a man who murders someone else to protect his family or himself, for instance, or even if he kills an innocent person out of fear for his own life in some twisted scenario, I can sympathize with, but a serial killer, or someone who murders someone else to get money or whatever, who takes away someone from their loved ones with no remorse... well, I don't see any excuse for that).

I believe we are all born with naturally selfish desires and naturally good and kind impulses, yes. And I do believe that some people come from really messed up circumstances which have warped them, and many of the people who are messed up, any number of us might be just the same way if we were forced to endure those same horrible circumstances. But just because a good many of the people who do terrible things may have understandable reasons for having something wrong with them by no means means there are not people who just choose to become evil for really no other reason than that they just choose it. From what I understand, Ted Bundy came from a good home, and I remember there were a couple of young teenagers at a school who massacred a bunch of students (the media jumped the gun on this and claimed at first that it was because they were bullied, but it became clear later that this was not the case)

Psychological problems can and do play a role. But there comes a point where you can't just apply blame to circumstances (Now that I think about it, this was kind of a theme in AF (: *happy to tie it in* There was a scene in one of the books where Artemis thinks to himself something roughly like, "My future lays before me, and I can choose where to take it. I can't blame circumstances for what I become; I am my own person, aware of myself." Something like that.) At some point we just have to realize some people have chosen to make choices that are evil, for reasons that none of us can grasp. I think this mentality that no one can be truly evil has been both a good thing and a bad thing; on the one hand, I think it's made our society want to try to be more understanding of other people and where they're coming from, because Hitlers are probably rarer than Puritan-ish societies of the past have believed. But at the same time, psychologists and judges always seem to be wanting to give murderers and people with violent records second chances, when they have proved themselves such a danger to society.

Oh, and I'm definitely not saying the people fighting Hitler should have done to him what he did to other people. Fighting evil with evil... well, then that leaves no good or justice in the world. You don't fight evil with hate or rage or vindictiveness because, yes, that makes you the same as what you're fighting, even if you find ways to rationalize how you are better.

edit, *looking back on long post* whoa, I got a little emotional there. (; Too many late night dateline episodes, lol... But I did used to really want to buy into this idea that there's no such thing as evil, and everyone can get along if we just try. But some people... there's just nothing you can do. (Hitler I think was one of these. The world basically tried to turn a blind eye to what he was doing at first, because they really just wanted everyone to try to get along and they didn't think he would take his plans very far. But Hitler really didn't want to get along; he wanted to have the position of supreme power over the world and to kill everyone he didn't like...)
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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby AliceFowl » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:29 pm

What I would like to know is how it's even a question whether or not Hitler was evil. How can some who heartlessly murdered millions of people even be given a chance? That is sickening.
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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby levina » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:33 am

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby AliceFowl » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:05 pm

If you say so. But how can anyone even consider giving a title any less than evil? Really, I think I am going to be sick.
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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:45 pm

I think most fiction is likely bad then... It's true there are some fictional stories where the villains aren't very realistic and almost shallow. (Like, I would call The Black Cauldron an example of this... The Horned King didn't seem entirely believable to me; he just seemed like an evil character created for the purpose of being conquered by the main character.) But characters like Voldemort had an entire background, as do many, many other characters that have no real redeeming qualities.

It definitely makes a more interesting read for me to have all the characters have some kind of hidden quality that shows they aren't as evil as they appear on the surface (part of why I love Artemis as a protagonist), but I don't think it's realistic as a world view, and that HP, with a mix of characters like Harry (very heroic), Snape (cruel and bitter, but ultimately brave and self-sacrificing), Scrimgeour or however it's spelled (strong leader with good goals and strong convictions, but too ruthless in his methods for Harry's taste), Umbridge (woman who desires order and believes herself always right, with absolutely no compassion with those beneath her, to the point of being evil), and Voldemort (only his goals of staying alive and possessing power for himself matter; other people are only valuable to him in so far as they further his goals). While having everyone have complex motivations and such is entertaining, and I like to see villains with truly strong beliefs that could almost seem respectable in some sense, but you can't apply that broadly to all people who do evil.

Hm, a good example might be the anime Death Note. Light, the protagonist, gets a hold of the Death Note which allows him to kill anyone whose name he writes in the notebook. He decides then that he is going to cleanse the world by wiping out all criminals, and his goal is to be the ruler of a new, more beautiful world without evil. He starts out governed by a positive ideals of justice and bringing peace, but by the end he had become thoroughly twisted to the point where he cared more about himself and becoming the 'new god of the world' (and he never valued the people who believed in his ideals and worked for him). That element of how he fooled people into believing he cared about them when really all he cared about was his goals made the show hard for me to watch, in contrast with Code Geass, where Lelouch, while doing things that were evil, was willing to die for his goals and still always cared about the people beneath him.

There have been people who have acted like Lelouch yeah, but I think it's very unlikely there haven't also been Lights too. It's not that Light was a flat or unbelievable character, it's just that he was distasteful in a way that I wish didn't actually exist. Unlike in fiction of course, we have no way of seeing what people's inner motivations are, but their actions generally tell a lot, and there are all kinds of people, who have all kinds of ways of thinking, and have differing evolutions in their mindsets (both devolving into monsters and becoming better people).
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Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby JetDragon1656 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:47 am

not to say what he did was right in any extent. but hilter did what he believed was right. the jews ruled over the germans and the germans revolted. it was definalty wrong but to him he truely believed it was the right and just thing to do at the time
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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Archery girl » Wed May 16, 2012 3:53 am

I don't think so. He was just pursuing what he believed in, yes maybe his beliefs were not right but his goal was to pursue them, isn't that what you are tought to do? Pursue your goals and don't give up?!

Anyways I don't like the people who joke around about this and think it is funny, for example, I was born in Austria near Hitler's birthday. People call me a Nazi and think it is funny, he was just pursuing his goals which were a little bit scary and wrong but nonetheless he pursued it!
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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Elisa3750 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:27 pm

It's true that hitler only came to power because his people supported him, but I want to say That germany lay in ruins and the majority of people thought that having hitler as their leader would save them. I personally think that hitler was a disgusting, foul, evil-hearted person. Also a lot of the people were 100% against him, but we're just scared that he would hurt them. In a book I read, just before hitler became chancellor, one character said :"it could only get worse if that lunatic hitler came to power." So that's my opinion...

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Archery girl » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:34 pm

If you were scared of what he would do to you, you would've done the same thing at the time. Everyone supported him because they were afraid. When people say " Oh I would've done the right thing!" You can say that but truthfully no one would've stood up.
Awesome quotes:

"Fear is not evil, it tells you what your weakness is. Once you know your weakness you can become stronger as well as kinder." -Gildarts Clive, from the anime Fairy Tail.

"Awww," Minho said, "That's almost as sweet as that time she slammed the end of a spear into your shuck face." -Minho, from Death Cure.

Will: "But I thought..."
Gilan: "Never say that in front of Halt. He'll simply reply, 'You're an apprentice. You're not ready to think,' or 'If you thought about it, you wouldn't ask'." -The Ranger's Apprentice Book 1, The Ruins of Gorlan.

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Re: Was Hitler really evil?

Postby Fallon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:58 pm

Archery girl wrote:If you were scared of what he would do to you, you would've done the same thing at the time. Everyone supported him because they were afraid. When people say " Oh I would've done the right thing!" You can say that but truthfully no one would've stood up.

Exactly. People just followed him out of fright, and nobody did anything that would stand out and get them killed.
But also, I can bet that a lot of the people actually did think that Hitler would make everything better. Since the war, Germany had no more respect or 'friends'. Everyone was against Germany. So when Hitler promised good, no more poverty, and to restore political power to Germany, they believed him and his methods, even though he was lying. So he tricked his people into even worse times.
I usually don't think that people can be evil, with a few exceptions, and Hitler as one of them.
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