Abortion

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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:17 am

I have to be quick 'cause I need to go but what about if they do take precautions and still end up pregnant? Condoms break and it's easy to take the Pill wrong sometimes and not realise (ie. at the wrong time of day, or maybe you' ve been sick within 12 hours of taking the pill and not realised you were within the time limit.) Are these women allowed abortions, because they were responsible, and yet you force someone who was pretty stupid to keep the child? Because essentially they ones who were stupid are being punished by being forced to keep the child, and no one has the right to dish out punishment like that,
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Re: Abortion

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:55 am

sharkie wrote:Rocket, I'm keeping this short. See how you keep having to over complicate things and change your argument, while mine and Kitsy's has stayed the same through out- who's is better?

The issue is complex and difficult, and one that requires more than a surface level or easy response. I have spent a great deal of thought on this subject over several years, and whenever I hear a counterargument, I stop to see if my own arguments are more or less logical than those I am presented with. I am dealing with the issue in a complicated way, because it's a complicated issue. (though maybe if I were more concise, it might help...)

Anyway, mind pointing out specifically what you're referring to when you say I'm being inconsistent?

sharkie wrote:And also, morals like "don't hit your children" (partly because you have chosen to take the responsibilty of having a child, and carrying it full term)- are clear. Morals like don't have sex unless you want a baby are ignorant- I think anyone that tries to preach abstinence is ignorant. I completely support individuals who are abstinent, but you shouldn't ever preach it. Because in modern western society less people are going to be abstinent than sexually active, and teaching abstinence just restricts sex education.

'Preach' is a little like the term 'murder' in its tendency to be used in order to incite a certain effect in the audience. 'Preach' implies that one is holding a Bible and hitting girls over the head with it to the beat of the chant 'Don't have sex, don't have sex.' But I don't think there's anything wrong with schools/churches/etc. educating teens, and emphasizing the consequences of having sex, and encouraging abstinence as a means to avoid the innumerable messes that could result from having sex.

The view that advocating abstinence is a 'churchy' notion and automatically results in nobody being willing to talk about sex is a bit of a stereotype resulting only from the (misplaced) association of it old fashioned values/the Puritan church, as though that past view is the only possible context in which we can view the concept of abstinence. Why can't schools educate students about sex, while also saying, 'but you are better off if you choose not to have sex at all'? (I believe I had a health teacher in either junior high or high school say something like that, though we also learned about condoms, and how to identify the symptoms of several STDs, things like that)

sharkie wrote:It is countries with limited sex education, and where sex is seen as more dirty that teenagers are more likely to get pregnant etc. While in countries with a liberal attitude to sex and abortion.. there is a lower rate of teen pregnancy all together. What does that say?

The southern states of the US were very prosperous, largely the result of slavery. There were lots of rich people, but it was at the expense of the slaves' labor. In other words, it is possible for there to be positive results in places, but those positive results may not be worth it if it is at the expense of others' wellbeing.

My point in saying this isn't to prove that a liberal attitude toward sex is automatically a bad thing, such as slavery is, but to point out that positive results of something does not necessarily equal something that is good.

But anyway, I think the best thing now is for me to be as direct as possible. So far, I've seen many pro-choice arguments put forth, such as (some of these overlap or are restatements of similar ideas):

1. A woman has the right to make decisions about her own body, and should not be forced to carry a baby
2. If one doesn't believe in abortion, they don't have to get one, but they shouldn't impose their morals on others
3. The population may go out of control if abortion was severely restricted or disallowed, which would lead to poverty for many women
4. A woman's life could be ruined/severely disrupted by a baby
5. The child's life may be short and painful anyway if they are born
6. It's hypocrisy for society to encourage sex, then turn around and punish women for it
7. Women should be allowed to choose for themselves, they are adults, not children

Now, the purpose of most of the analogies I have given has been to show why none of these arguments make sense in light of the fact that pro-lifers believe that the aborted baby is a human being. My mention of Hitler among other comparisons is not thrown out there as a misplaced comparison in order to generate an artificial response of outrage that has no relevance to the issue, but to try to aide in the understanding of why it is these pro-choice arguments do not address the real argument. The arguments do not take into consideration the views of the audience (in this case, me), that they believe the fetus/baby is a person, in light of the belief of most that all human life has inherent value.

If a white slave owner killed one of his slaves and we accused him of murder, would we be at all convinced or consider it just if he said, 'stop calling it murder, murder is just a polarizing term used to incite anger'?

If a woman were to kill her live baby and she said, 'it was ruining my life', would that be considered an adequate reason?

I'm not saying any pro-choicer agrees that these examples would be equivalent to abortion. But to the pro-life side they are, so it may be a good idea to look closely at the usual pro-choice arguments, and then try to judge which ones would be effective and which ones wouldn't be in light of that belief of the audience being addressed. The only way I can see is proving that a fetus/baby is not a human being while in the womb, or while in the first stages of development.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:45 am

Okay you do realise you spent a while there comparing the enslavement of a race to women having the right to sleep around.

Essentially you compared freedom to slavery. I don't care why, but comparing that is missing the point. The whole point is that freedom is always positive. Freedom to make your own decision is crucial to life. Yes, you could argue that choosing to have sex is the most important decision, but I'd disagree.

Now let's go to the other part of what you were saying, the woman with the baby.

If you choose not to have an abortion, and then you choose to not give the child away, then you have taken on the responsibility of that child. I think the child only becomes the mothers responsibility when she decides she's going to raise it. And if you don't take it on, then that's your decision. Which you have the freedom ^ to make.

In that situation, mothers complaining about their children are ruining their life... really I don't like that. Because in my opinion, you had plenty of opportunities to say "Okay, I don't want this."

Which you, really, feasibly (because again, look at that abortion figure) wouldn't give them. The climate of not having abortions would not lead to less woman having promiscuous sex, it would lead to this twisted culture of "You made your bed, lie in it." Again, removing access to abortion would extremely hinder the fight for women.
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Re: Abortion

Postby lethe_naiad » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:54 pm

Of course a foetus isn't a baby while it's in the womb.

Is a foetus a baby when it's a bunch of gametes? Does the magical spark of life (soul, or whatever religious bull you want to insert here) occur at conception? When the egg meets the sperm there's only two cells there. Not exactly a human. No killing of a human, therefore no murder.
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Re: Abortion

Postby hyunjoonglovie » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:40 am

Personally I'm okay with abortion.. What if the mother was unable to support a baby? You really think it would be better to bring a child into the world when you don't even have the means to take care of it? I don't.

And of course what if the mother was raped? Why should she give up her life to raise a child she never wanted?

Whether or not abortion is the right answer depends on the situation, and it is a choice only the mother can make. No one has the right to judge her.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:23 am

lethe_naiad wrote:Does the magical spark of life (soul, or whatever religious bull you want to insert here) occur at conception?


Be more offensive.
I believe that, OK I'm not religious, but does that make it bull? No. Despite me being very scientifically minded, I still believe it's a life. But only when it is a Zygote, btw. And a foetus is a baby while in the womb, once the CNS had developed (legally it's classed as 24 weeks, the limit to abortion) it becomes what you would call a baby. I call it a baby when it's a zygote, or even that little peanut on the twelve week scan (XD, what, it does look like a peanut!). I believe that zygote, enbryo, bunch of stem cells (depending on the stage of pregancy, naturally), whatever you want to call it still has life and nothing should take that away from it.
This is an odd point to make, but say your dream is to climb everast, and someone said "No you can never do that" how would you feel? Someone making that choice for you. How fair is that? It's only fair for the peson you doesn't want you to climb everast. With abortion, it's only fair on the mother.
I like to think we're in charge of our own lives and destiny, and although this embryo is just cells it will be a life if nertured.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lime Yay » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:36 am

lethe_naiad wrote:Of course a foetus isn't a baby while it's in the womb.

Is a foetus a baby when it's a bunch of gametes? Does the magical spark of life (soul, or whatever religious bull you want to insert here) occur at conception? When the egg meets the sperm there's only two cells there. Not exactly a human. No killing of a human, therefore no murder.


Magical spark of life? Religious bull? You can't say that without coming off as a jerk, you realize that, yeah?

I suppose if someone stabbed your pet dog to death it wouldn't be murder either, then? Not exactly human. Sure, you can say killing a dog isn't murder, but is it morally wrong? Can you be charged with animal abuse? Yes on both accounts.

I think your problem is that you believe in a magical spark of life. That when a foetus touches the outside air it suddenly becomes (well, obviously it HAS been alive since conception, so...) human? How arbitrary. It depends on how YOU define "human", so how can you hold how other people choose define human in derision? What is so significant about birth, anyway? A baby is still very reliant on others to survive, there is continual sacrifice to raise it.

There is no way around that this is a gray area. None. No one has a basis to claim otherwise.

I guess I should be on topic, shouldn't I? I think that I'd rather not abort myself. I think that I consider life to begin before birth, or at least, I'd rather have the attitude of: when in doubt, don't kill. However, not only to I value life, but I also value quality of life. A ton of development occurs in the womb, and the baby/foetus is most vulnerable. I think a lot of abuse can be done in this time, such as drinking. I DO think drinking heavily while pregnant is child abuse. I don't think it makes sense to force women to nurture a life, if there's no way to really monitor if they abuse it. I don't think the law can make you do "the right thing" in this case.

I don't believe being pregnant is going to "ruin" anyone's life. This is probably because I've seen actual floral-patterned bedsheety lives. However, there are other factors that come into play, I will admit that.

I think that, if people honestly wanted to "save babies' lives" the best thing they can do is promote good sex education. I think if you are anti-abortion but want children to be taught "abstinence only", objectively speaking it does not make sense.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:05 pm

This is an odd point to make, but say your dream is to climb everast, and someone said "No you can never do that" how would you feel? Someone making that choice for you. How fair is that? It's only fair for the peson you doesn't want you to climb everast. With abortion, it's only fair on the mother.
I like to think we're in charge of our own lives and destiny, and although this embryo is just cells it will be a life if nertured.


Opal, this is definately a very odd point. I don't quite understand what you're saying - really, that would be more appropriate for the pro-choice argument. In that scenario, someone is making the choice for you, which is exactly what someone pro-life would do, tell you "No, you must carry this child to full term."

Obviously the problem here is that one side believes that from the moment of conception, the bunch of cells (idk the scientific term for a just fertilised egg) has life in it. But surely even those people who believe this can accept that others do not? And it's not like people who are pro-choice are crazy, baby-killing animals who aren't sensible in the slightest and just go round having abortions every few months. If someone believes that this is not a baby yet, and is backed up by science, the law and the majority of the population, then how can you tell them that they are wrong and that you are right? You can make the decision not to have an abortion yourself, but how can you make someone else carry the baby to full term when they don't believe this and they wil begrudge that child for every second it is in the womb.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lime Yay » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:09 pm

Kitsy wrote:
is backed up by science,


What science? Science can tell you when a foetus develops what, but can't tell you when a foetus becomes human. Science tells us genetically the fertilized egg is human, not any other species. Or it can tell when in the womb the babies brain is able to interpret pain. Or any other landmark, but it's up to morals to decide which landmarks constitute a baby.

"Majority of the population" sounds fishy, too. Do you have a link? Or is this based off hanging around a bunch of liberal young people?

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Re: Abortion

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:39 pm

Kitsy wrote:Obviously the problem here is that one side believes that from the moment of conception, the bunch of cells (idk the scientific term for a just fertilised egg) has life in it. But surely even those people who believe this can accept that others do not? And it's not like people who are pro-choice are crazy, baby-killing animals who aren't sensible in the slightest and just go round having abortions every few months. If someone believes that this is not a baby yet, and is backed up by science, the law and the majority of the population, then how can you tell them that they are wrong and that you are right? You can make the decision not to have an abortion yourself, but how can you make someone else carry the baby to full term when they don't believe this and they wil begrudge that child for every second it is in the womb.

There have been societies that have defined people of other cultures as being less than human beings. Think of how blacks in America were forced into slavery, and not given the same rights as white people. If say, a white person at that time argued that it was okay for some white owners to believe that blacks were people too and deserved the same rights as whites, but they shouldn't try to impose that belief on other white owners who felt that blacks were less valuable as human beings, would that have legitimacy?

Because anti-abortionists believe that all unborn babies/fetuses are human beings, they, like the the abolitionists who fought for blacks' freedom and for equal rights, believe that it is the law that is wrong and should be changed.

lethe_naiad wrote:Of course a foetus isn't a baby while it's in the womb.

Is a foetus a baby when it's a bunch of gametes? Does the magical spark of life (soul, or whatever religious bull you want to insert here) occur at conception? When the egg meets the sperm there's only two cells there. Not exactly a human. No killing of a human, therefore no murder.

opalkoboi wrote:I like to think we're in charge of our own lives and destiny, and although this embryo is just cells it will be a life if nertured.

I put these two together, because I really like the point you made here opal and just wanted to elaborate a little. The main point is that, if you leave these two cells alone and do absolutely nothing with them, those cells will continue to develop into what everyone would have to consider a full-fledged baby.

Let me put it this way, lethe_naiad: Let's say I had a time machine at my house. I get in it and am whisked back a little over a couple decades or so. At this time, your mother has just discovered she is pregnant. Now, if say she was considering an abortion because she didn't feel ready and I was to convince her to get an abortion, the result would be that you would never have grown up to be the person that you are. Whether those two cells look like a baby or not, the result of someone never being given the chance to live out their life is still the same.

I agree the 'magical spark of life' thing appears arbitrary, ambiguous. But it seems to me that it is those who believe that a person only gains that spark and should have rights sometime in the middle of the pregnancy or after the child is born that would have a harder time explaining it. It really has nothing to do with what religious people believe (that is an inaccurate stereotype of pro-lifers that many such as opalkoboi don't fit into), and everything to do with the current dominant moral belief system, that believes that every person should have rights of their own, even if they can't speak for themselves.

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Re: Abortion

Postby lethe_naiad » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:27 am

I think that is not a valid argument. Let's say we had a time machine and you went back in time to when your mum and dad were together BC (before children). Are they using protection? My god, that's killing a whole bunch of potential babies! What is your dad masturbated? Whole bunch of sperm gone, without the opportunity for life. Or your mother having a period. How dare she loose precious eggs that could have been fertilised? Or women who have miscarriages. Why, you should go right up to them and tell them that they are murderers.

I'm not self-deluded enough to think that the earth revolves around me. I don't believe in destiny, I'm not religious and I'm not 'spiritual'.

If you believe that, and you don't want to have an abortion, or masturbate, or have a period where you don't try and have sex, then that's your business. But as an individual, and as an adult woman in control of my own sex life and my own contraception, then I have the right to decide as well. I'm not sexually active at this present moment, but during my last relationship I was on the pill, and I always use condoms. If they both fail, then I should have the right to terminate a pregnancy that would destroy my way of life, my hopes and my dreams.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:21 am

That's an invaild point, Lethe, because being pregnant and chosing to get rid of it is much differrent to it naturally dying or being lost in the menstrual cycle.
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Re: Abortion

Postby lethe_naiad » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:15 pm

How? They all carry the same potential, which was your argument.

Furthermore, I see abortion as quite an anti-feminist concept. A man can get a woman pregnant, and still have the same job, the same work opportunities and the same career. A woman gets pregnant, and she looses income, she may loose her job, she either has to take time off work or take on more work in order to pay a babysitter, her career choices as limited and her chance of moving to senior levels and pay is greatly reduced.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:25 pm

It carries the same potential, yes, but it is naturally lost, we don't "interfere with nature" as such. When it's natural, you could call it fate, I suppose.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:39 pm

I don't think believing that it is "fate" if you get pregnant is a reasonable excuse to get rid of abortion, neither is "interfering with nature." By that means we shouldn't help people who are ill, ie. cancer, because we're interfering with nature and fate there.
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