Abortion

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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:42 am

sharkie wrote:It's not KILLING though, it's not something living. Scientifically, something which you pride yourself in, and legally, it's not considered alive.

And it's not selfish- that implies that it's your *Fault* that you're in that situation. And I don't like that. Things can go wrong and women get pregnant. But just because all women CAN get pregnant doesn't mean they all should have to go through with it. Having children is something that you should make a decision about, and if you don't want it then it's your choice.

You even sound pro choice about your sister. You say you WANT her to not have an abortion but you know that it's her choice. That's pro choice. A lot of pro choice people would NEVER want an abortion, or would NEVER want their family to have an abortion. However it's acknowledging that it's their decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Edit: I think that what people do with their own body is completely their decision. For example I believe in legalising and regulating drugs, and prostitution. So before people bring up that stuff in response to this- that's my opinion.


Even if it isn't scienctifically alive (btw, that was such a good intro. Hit me with something I pride myself in. Very good) I am still sentimental and realise it will become a human being like you or I. Although at the time of abortion it has no real nervus system - so it, legally, isn't living, but I look at the possibilities.

If I had my way, she wouldn't get it. However, it is:
a) Her choice
b) Best for her life.
However, what's best isn't always what's right. Morally, it's wrong; looking at the big picture, it's best for her.

Also, I agree with that. hey might as well legalise drugs because if you want to damage your own body go ahead, but although I am against abortion I realise with each woman who gets one it is not my choice, but how can you not agree that if a complete slapper gets pregnant and says "Whatever. I don't want it. I'll just abort." Then it is selfish a morally wrong in my opinion.
but yeah, drugs and prostitution might as well be legalised because it'd make the world easier and save opur courts lots of time and it is each inderviduals choice, as you said.

Finally, you can not say you are willing to carry the baby because you don't know how it's going to feel. With being pregnant, is the inability to go to school and continue your life. You will be embarrassed and other girls at school will look at you with disrespect. There is also the question of how will you support your child? Who's going to help? Are you going to continue with school even if you have a child to take care of? There are so many people out there that believe moral is everything, but when it comes to it, that's only a concept created by humans. What is truly necessary should always be a possibility. Morale shouldn't have any reign over that.


@Bentj96 Very sorry for having strong morals, I didn't realise there was an age restriction on them. ANd I DO understand the consiquences, you'd know that if you would have read my next post.
However, I do understand I am young, have never been pregnant ect, but I DO know I'd do everything within my power to keep that child. As for what others think? Stuff 'em. I don't know what's like to be teen and pregnant, and it won't happen to me (sex after marriage, people), but I wouldn't care what anyone said. Already get disrespect at school anyway so I'd just get it for a different reason. It wouldn't bother me because I would know I'm doing the right thing. However I would put the child for adoption. It would be hard, but best for that child. It deserves the best life possible.
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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:51 am

opalkoboi wrote:
sharkie wrote:It's not KILLING though, it's not something living. Scientifically, something which you pride yourself in, and legally, it's not considered alive.

And it's not selfish- that implies that it's your *Fault* that you're in that situation. And I don't like that. Things can go wrong and women get pregnant. But just because all women CAN get pregnant doesn't mean they all should have to go through with it. Having children is something that you should make a decision about, and if you don't want it then it's your choice.

You even sound pro choice about your sister. You say you WANT her to not have an abortion but you know that it's her choice. That's pro choice. A lot of pro choice people would NEVER want an abortion, or would NEVER want their family to have an abortion. However it's acknowledging that it's their decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Edit: I think that what people do with their own body is completely their decision. For example I believe in legalising and regulating drugs, and prostitution. So before people bring up that stuff in response to this- that's my opinion.


Even if it isn't scienctifically alive (btw, that was such a good intro. Hit me with something I pride myself in. Very good) I am still sentimental and realise it will become a human being like you or I. Although at the time of abortion it has no real nervus system - so it, legally, isn't living, but I look at the possibilities.

If I had my way, she wouldn't get it. However, it is:
a) Her choice
b) Best for her life.
However, what's best isn't always what's right. Morally, it's wrong; looking at the big picture, it's best for her.

Also, I agree with that. hey might as well legalise drugs because if you want to damage your own body go ahead, but although I am against abortion I realise with each woman who gets one it is not my choice, but how can you not agree that if a complete slapper gets pregnant and says "Whatever. I don't want it. I'll just abort." Then it is selfish a morally wrong in my opinion.
but yeah, drugs and prostitution might as well be legalised because it'd make the world easier and save opur courts lots of time and it is each inderviduals choice, as you said.

Finally, you can not say you are willing to carry the baby because you don't know how it's going to feel. With being pregnant, is the inability to go to school and continue your life. You will be embarrassed and other girls at school will look at you with disrespect. There is also the question of how will you support your child? Who's going to help? Are you going to continue with school even if you have a child to take care of? There are so many people out there that believe moral is everything, but when it comes to it, that's only a concept created by humans. What is truly necessary should always be a possibility. Morale shouldn't have any reign over that.


@Bentj96 Very sorry for having strong morals, I didn't realise there was an age restriction on them. ANd I DO understand the consiquences, you'd know that if you would have read my next post.
However, I do understand I am young, have never been pregnant ect, but I DO know I'd do everything within my power to keep that child. As for what others think? Stuff 'em. I don't know what's like to be teen and pregnant, and it won't happen to me (sex after marriage, people), but I wouldn't care what anyone said. Already get disrespect at school anyway so I'd just get it for a different reason. It wouldn't bother me because I would know I'm doing the right thing. However I would put the child for adoption. It would be hard, but best for that child. It deserves the best life possible.


Good on you for planning to have sex after marriage. Like I said though, you can't plan for something so far ahead. Don't believe anything with iron-clad determination because everyone changes.

I never said there are age restrictions for morales. I said that you don't understand the consequences. It seems like that because your morals go a bit too far. You are too determined to believe them. The moment that can be seen is the moment you need to reorganize your thoughts. You said your self that you can't deal with killing. That was the entire point of my post. Your morals overpower your sense to see what's in front of you.

And for not caring? If you didn't care, you would be a sociopath with no morals. Imagine what you would be like if you didn't care for what others think? You would wear whatever you want, smoke wherever you want and fail all your classes. Personally, that's the only reason I make sure my hair isn't sticking up or I don't wear the most ridiculous clothes.

When I said that what is truly necessary should always be a possibility. Morale shouldn't have any reign over that, it was meant for Mizora.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:03 am

I said I wouldn't care what anyone said if I were pregnant. They could say all they want but the moral high ground would be mine.
And I do understand that I grip onto my moral very hard and have a strong sense of right and wrong, however I understand they may change as I get older, nonetheless I currently believe in these things.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:52 am

I don't quite understand what was the point of bringing that story about your sister in, apart from to say just how much you dislike abortion. It doesn't add anything to your argument. (Hope she gets through it alright though.)

You say you would give up your life for your future child if you got pregnant. Good for you, I'd think you're being an idiot about it but I'm not going to force you to have an abortion, am I? And therein lies the reason why pro-choice is ultimately better, because you have the choice.

Basically, bentj said most of my point. You don't understand the consequences and you take your morals too far, you're too stuck in them and you can't see it any other way. Which I personally think is a dangerous and worrying thing, because you shouldn't let them cloud your judgement.
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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:59 am

opalkoboi wrote:I said I wouldn't care what anyone said if I were pregnant. They could say all they want but the moral high ground would be mine.
And I do understand that I grip onto my moral very hard and have a strong sense of right and wrong, however I understand they may change as I get older, nonetheless I currently believe in these things.


There is no such thing as a right or wrong moral. Moral is a feeling of righteousness. If what you are doing is right, it is moral to do that action. Otherwise, it is not. You should never say you grip onto your moral. Never ever say that. You need to reconsider what you believe to be right when you are trying to hang on to moral. It would be fine if you said you believe strongly in your morals, but you said you're trying to hang on to them.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:35 pm

bentj96 wrote:
opalkoboi wrote:I said I wouldn't care what anyone said if I were pregnant. They could say all they want but the moral high ground would be mine.
And I do understand that I grip onto my moral very hard and have a strong sense of right and wrong, however I understand they may change as I get older, nonetheless I currently believe in these things.


There is no such thing as a right or wrong moral. Moral is a feeling of righteousness. If what you are doing is right, it is moral to do that action. Otherwise, it is not. You should never say you grip onto your moral. Never ever say that. You need to reconsider what you believe to be right when you are trying to hang on to moral. It would be fine if you said you believe strongly in your morals, but you said you're trying to hang on to them.


:eyeroll: There is a right or wrong moral, yet they differ in each person.
And I grip onto it, as in a metaphor for believing strongly and not changing my mind. What I said was not wrong, and it is rude to say so. You're just trying to pick fault in my arguments. :eyeroll:
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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:14 am

opalkoboi wrote:
bentj96 wrote:
opalkoboi wrote:I said I wouldn't care what anyone said if I were pregnant. They could say all they want but the moral high ground would be mine.
And I do understand that I grip onto my moral very hard and have a strong sense of right and wrong, however I understand they may change as I get older, nonetheless I currently believe in these things.


There is no such thing as a right or wrong moral. Moral is a feeling of righteousness. If what you are doing is right, it is moral to do that action. Otherwise, it is not. You should never say you grip onto your moral. Never ever say that. You need to reconsider what you believe to be right when you are trying to hang on to moral. It would be fine if you said you believe strongly in your morals, but you said you're trying to hang on to them.


:eyeroll: There is a right or wrong moral, yet they differ in each person.
And I grip onto it, as in a metaphor for believing strongly and not changing my mind. What I said was not wrong, and it is rude to say so. You're just trying to pick fault in my arguments. :eyeroll:


That's exactly why there is no right or wrong moral. Every person is different. Doh!

It's not rude to say that you may want to reconsider your morals. Gripping isn't a good metaphor for believing strongly anyways. o.o Gripping is hanging on and trying not to let go. Believing strongly in something isn't the same thing is it?

Anyways, this is getting off-topic.

This thread really is pointless in the end. There is one irrefutable fact here. If abortion becomes illegal, it is really stealing something from those who need it. Allowing it freely could be considered murder. That's why the laws for abortion must compromise.

Finally... Without abortion, our world would become overpopulated. That would be a disaster.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:02 am

Actually, gripping is a good word. You grip someone's hand if you want to reasure them, showing your faith in them. Hanging isn't. And there is a right and wrong, just because it differs in every person, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. DNA differs in everyone, but DNA exsists.

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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:07 am

opalkoboi wrote:Actually, gripping is a good word. You grip someone's hand if you want to reasure them, showing your faith in them. Hanging isn't. And there is a right and wrong, just because it differs in every person, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. DNA differs in everyone, but DNA exsists.

End of.


I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I never once said moral doesn't exist... There is no right and wrong. Simply what the majority think is right or wrong. If someone believes something else, doesn't mean they're wrong. It's just contrary to the majority.

You said that gripping might mean showing your faith in them. Faith shouldn't be used while discussing morals should it?

Faith: belief that is not based on proof

In other words, believing in something even if you know it might fail you.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:11 am

bentj96 wrote:
opalkoboi wrote:Actually, gripping is a good word. You grip someone's hand if you want to reasure them, showing your faith in them. Hanging isn't. And there is a right and wrong, just because it differs in every person, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. DNA differs in everyone, but DNA exsists.

End of.


I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I never once said moral doesn't exist... There is no right and wrong. Simply what the majority think is right or wrong. If someone believes something else, doesn't mean they're wrong. It's just contrary to the majority.

You said that gripping might mean showing your faith in them. Faith shouldn't be used while discussing morals should it?

Faith: belief that is not based on proof

In other words, believing in something even if you know it might fail you.


Having faith in your moral. In what you're doing is right. So faith can be used while discussing morals. Just how stupid are you not to get that? Why are you constantly trying to invent reasons for what I'm saying being wrong? Can you stop it please?

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:05 am

Opal what he's saying is that your personal morals aren't everybody elses. And it's not something like 'murder is wrong'- it's something that is unclear. So letting people decide for themselves, rather than pushing other people's morals (which are normally influenced by religion, NORMALLY) on them. He's not discrediting yours, he's simply saying that if you think it's morally wrong then NEVER get an abortion. But your morals do not equal my morals, so do not stay in the way of mine just because you believe it's wrong.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:43 am

sharkie wrote:Opal what he's saying is that your personal morals aren't everybody elses. And it's not something like 'murder is wrong'- it's something that is unclear. So letting people decide for themselves, rather than pushing other people's morals (which are normally influenced by religion, NORMALLY) on them. He's not discrediting yours, he's simply saying that if you think it's morally wrong then NEVER get an abortion. But your morals do not equal my morals, so do not stay in the way of mine just because you believe it's wrong.


Um, that's not what was happening AT ALL. True, I think that, but that;s not at all what we were arguing about. He's saying there is no moral right and wrong, and he's saying otherwise. I say there is because although it differs from person to person, it doesn't mean it doesnt exsist, because it does exsist for each indervidual person.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lime Yay » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:56 am

Just one quick question:

Kitsy, I am not quite sure how a pregnancy would ruin your life. Why would you have to drop out of school? If you did have to drop out, why would it be so hard to come back in after missing one semester? How does your school deal with co-ops and other such things? It's quite common here to take a semester off here to do a co-op or because you can't afford it.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:19 am

I wouldn't be able to take a term/semester off as far as I am aware. You can reschedule exams if you are extremely ill, but you can't miss a whole term or you'd miss loads of lectures and seminars so you wouldn't be able to catch up. I don't know what a co-op is? But no, you're not supposed to take time off in university at all. You get given a loan and you have to stick it through the three years.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lime Yay » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:09 pm

Co-op is like an internship but longer. You take some time off school so that you can work at a company gaining hands on technical skills.

I am surprised your uni doesn't have programs to help with that sort of thing, like being pregnant or being a student parent. Or does it? Does your uni offer online classes at all?

Sorry, this is offtopic. Just sort of blew my mind that you can't have a semester off, but I guess money for university is more of an issue in the US, and co-ops are a big deal. What about studying abroad? I know a girl right now whose program starts mid April so she had to take the whole semester off.

I guess a little more on topic would be to say that the only pregnant student I know never took time off school, except to deliver the baby. But it depends on how your pregnancy is, I guess. If you live at uni, it might be easier, but if you have a rough pregnancy where you throw up a lot then I could see wanting to take a semester off. IS this on topic, lol? Whatevs.
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