Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Frondish17 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:42 am

yeah, that harping on the bad points of humans did get kind of degrading after a while. But I suppose it does add authenticity to the story, just the fact that there are cultural and racial problems between fairies and humans the same as there are between humans and humans, and in some cases fairies and fairies (goblins v. dwarves, for example).
Another thing that got on my nerves that seemed more upped in the sixth book was (and don't kill me for this) the whole environmentalist issue. I mean, I never really saw Angeline as someone who was so worried about saving an extinct species before, nor did I picture Artemis as someone who would be so emotionally torn up because he eliminated silky safakas . . . I don't know, the fairies loving animals and nature was fine and realistic (them being more "in tune" with the earth and everything) but I think the whole lemur guilt tripping thing with Artemis and Angeline was kind of out of character. And the whole Extinctionist thing (while definitely generating many great scenes and ideas) was also kind of forced. I don't know - am I completely off about this? . . . . :eyeroll:
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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Exit » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:57 am

You're right on this one Frondish. This is probably my biggest complaint about the series as a whole: the increase in preaching. I feel it gives the impression that it's SUPPOSED to be dark, as opposed to being ACTUALLY dark. All the environmentalist messages are too forced and end up actually downplaying the meaning (obviously not Colfer's intent). Due to that poor attempt, TTP ends up being less dark than, say, Arctic Incident with Fowl's father being kidnapped, or the Opal Deception's massive political corruption, or even the first book's relentless focus on criminal activity. The difference there is that TTP tries to reach outside of the book's universe a fair bit more than the aforementioned books. That breaks the reader's suspension of disbelief and reduces the impact of the text. When it addresses broad issues on it's own terms, it is spellbinding.

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Tenzen12 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:29 am

You are wrong. Environmentalist issue is something you can see through whole serie. Just remember on whaler on first book or Green train of second. I can't remember anthing from 3rd and 4th but I am sure there is some people who know books better than me and can add something from them. Anyway when I saw this theme in TTP I weren't realy suprised by that.
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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Exit » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:25 pm

Tenzen12 wrote:You are wrong. Environmentalist issue is something you can see through whole serie. Just remember on whaler on first book or Green train of second. I can't remember anthing from 3rd and 4th but I am sure there is some people who know books better than me and can add something from them. Anyway when I saw this theme in TTP I weren't realy suprised by that.


But the story did not revolve around such issues until TTP. That's why I say my complaint about the "whole series" is the "increase" of the presence of these messages. They sure are in all the preceding titles, but definitely not to the same extent. TTP just took it way too far. That's what I'm saying.

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Tenzen12 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:47 pm

OK my mistake. I get what you mean. And I dislike story promoting peace love and flowers (not neccesary Hippies). But I didn't find it disturbing in Eon Colfer case. He somehow expressing his concern with these issue but not forcefully ( I would say that readers were far more concerned about kissing scene than some extinct lemur. I have to admit other popular authors probably wouldn't go so far.
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Criminal: Who are you guys!?
Tiger: You mean us? We're-
Blue Rose:We're the heroes of this town! [Steps on criminals face] My name is Blue Rose. We keep the peace in Sternbild at all times!
Tiger: ...What she said.
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Rorschach: Weren't all the X-Men movies about you?
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Spoiler:
Artemis: I don't like lollipops...

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Egon: Sorry, Venkman, I'm terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.
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Antonio: Hey, Blue Rose, help us out!
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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:45 pm

The environmental issues have been important aspect in the series from the beginning as Tenzen12 pointed out, though I agree that they were not focused on so much until TTP. However, from the standpoint of the series as a whole and what makes sense for a storyline, I feel it was completely natural for the series to finally focus on an issue that has underpinned the series from the start.

One of the main reasons fairies dislike humans so much is because of the environment, so it made sense to focus more on the environment if the book was also going to focus more on the enmity fairies (especially Holly) have toward Mud Men. (sorry to keep harping on the racism thing, I'll stop now ^^' but it's an aspect of the books that fascinates me...)

Frondish17 wrote:I mean, I never really saw Angeline as someone who was so worried about saving an extinct species before, nor did I picture Artemis as someone who would be so emotionally torn up because he eliminated silky safakas . . . I don't know, the fairies loving animals and nature was fine and realistic (them being more "in tune" with the earth and everything) but I think the whole lemur guilt tripping thing with Artemis and Angeline was kind of out of character. And the whole Extinctionist thing (while definitely generating many great scenes and ideas) was also kind of forced.

I don't know, we never knew too much about Angeline (from what I remember) before, and I didn't feel it was anything jarring to find out she was a humanitarian/conservationist. She seems like she could easily be that kind of person to me...

As for little Artemis, remember at this time he was only just barely starting out on his criminal career, and so it made sense for him not to be as hard as he was in book 1. Plus, Artemis has never been totally unconcerned with the environment, probably influenced by his mother (book 1, he indicates a distaste for whalers, and in TOD, when Opal says that humans skin animals for their own comfort and Artemis says 'some do, not me personally'). And the older Artemis had clearly developed a lot stronger conscience since the first book, and become more concerned about environmental issues as well as with the value of individual life through his interaction with the fairies.

Also, the Extinctionist thing was not supposed to be realistic, I don't think. Rather, it was meant to be satirical. It was utterly ridiculous (which made it hilarious, even though it was kind of scary), but there was an element of truth to it concerning human nature. Because things like that, or the equivalent of that have happened and do happen, though perhaps not in quite the same way. (putting a sentient being on trial and referring to that being as an 'it', for instance)

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books

Postby ILiveForTheDay » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:31 pm

I didn't really notice the environmental preaching until TAC. Then it felt forced (The whole ice cube thing?). I understand the environment is a big issue, I understand that we're basically killing it, but I much prefer the drip feed such as we've been getting through the entire series with the odd comment. Most new books seem to have an environmental slant, but when it gets too preachy. . . It's like getting Jehovah Witnesses at your door. You want to run.
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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:19 am

Another old topic I think is worth bringing back...(I forgot I'd commented on this. X3 But I notice I didn't really address the initial topic question, lol.)

On the environmental issue: I've read lots of stories (particularly short stories) that seem to demonstrate a clear environmentalist agenda, and while I don't think it's at all bad for authors to try to find ways in their stories to promote awareness of the environment, when the agenda becomes too forced or obvious, I think it's effectiveness of getting the audience to think on it goes down. When people feel like they're being talked down to or you might say 'preached at,' I think there's a tendency to get defensive and shut off.

Personally, although I've seen stories where it feels forced (or the story has been created to feed a political agenda, rather than the story simply dealing with those aspects in a natural way), I always thought the issue of the environment felt natural in the AF series, maybe because in folklore, fairies are often associated with nature. And I think it makes sense for a series like Artemis Fowl, where environmentalism has been integrated in as one of its central themes from the beginning, for the series to come to slowly focus more on those themes. TTP brings to the forefront many other aspects of the book that were in the background before, and that progression is one of the things I like about the series.

On the other hand, in TLG,
Spoiler:
I admit I was a little put off by the environmentalist aspects of that one, mainly because it didn't seem quite as well integrated into the story. Rather, Opal destroying her past self conveniently destroys most of the technology on the planet, and though this is made to seem like the onset of an apocalyptic-type of situation, apparently it actually leads to a happy ending, and we get snippets tacked on at the end of people being forced to go back to farming and such.




But anyway, to go back to the original topic of this thread.

From what I've been reading, seems like a lot of people felt TOD and TLC had a darker feel than TTP, largely because of character death. In TOD, Root died, and in TLC, Holly, Qwan and No1 died, and it was uncertain whether they might really stay dead. I admit, reading TLC I had a similar reaction. In all the near-death scenes in AF, from what I remember, Colfer never lets you think the character has actually died—in any scene where one character might think another character has died, he generally puts the scene that shows how they escape right before it. So in TLC when Holly suddenly gets stabbed, and the line, '...leaving Holly to die on the ground, which she did' was a shock for me, and I really wondered if she was gone. It was a very powerful, dark moment, which made TLC one of my favorite books of the series.

However, that being said, TTP had the darkest feel to me. I agree that the characters' physical danger (that is, the feeling the characters might really die) was less strong than in TLC and some of the other books, but for me, the emotional tension surrounding Artemis's lie to Holly made the book more oppressive. I guess it largely depends on your own personal reaction as a reader, but for me, maybe because I see characters under threat of death all the time, often it's situations where a good character turns bad or does something horrible that really strike me and can incite more of an emotional response. I didn't believe that Holly and Artemis would die, but there was a point in the book where I wasn't sure if they'd ever really be friends again, at least the same way they had been growing to be every since TLC. And in some odd way, that sense of oppression and fear was stronger than the fear they might die, at least for me.


Of course, now that I've read the series clear through and know what happens (how tensions are resolved and which characters survive, which is most of them), I don't think it has nearly the same dark feel for me that it did when I was reading the series for the first time. But I think that's natural, and there are still plenty of lingering questions surrounding the themes and character development in TTP to mull over.
“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby FadingLight » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:22 pm

I guess The Last Guardian always felt darker to me, since when most of the modern technology exploded a bunch of people probably died. What happened to people in cars and planes and boats? Or people on life support or with pacemakers or hearing aids? Or sitting in front of really high-tech computers? Same for the fairies (most of the Council was eliminated by cellphones). And then some animals get shot, and there's the plan Artemis finally came up with,
Spoiler:
involving his own death


On the environmental thing: it didn't feel all that forced to me in TTP—I thought it made sense for Artemis to feel guilty about the lemur, since he was a better person by then and had sacrificed the last of a species to make money (and he found that the species' brain fluid could've cured his mother). And Angeline is said to be a very moral person, so it would make sense for her to be an environmentalist and humanitarian. I like the environment thing in TAC. However, I didn't really like the farming thing at the end of TLG either.
Spoiler:
It seemed really convenient for the disaster to reform the world that way, and I guess I just, for some unknown reason, thought that if Eoin wrote a big change like that, Artemis and Co.would be responsible for it, although I guess saving humankind is no small feet.
However, it does kind of show that good things can come out of really bad things.
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I'm trying to care, Artemis. But I thought it was all supposed to be over when the fat lady sings. Well, she's singing, but it doesn't appear to be over.—Holly Short

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:13 pm

That's a good point, in a lot of ways TLG had a lot of elements that were much longer lasting. Lots of people died (including the entire Council) and the entire world was permanently affected, and Artemis, as you said,
Spoiler:
sacrifices himself.
As far as I remember, no one died in TTP. In that sense, even TAC was darker than TTP, because Vinyaya and her crew were killed, and then those in the prison shuttle with Turnball before he escaped died, too.

I guess that's the strange thing about my reaction when I was reading TTP versus reading the later books, because it felt more oppressive to me. I think a lot of that was the personal stake of Artemis's mother being in danger, and the fact that he was essentially responsible, both for the disease (or at least he thought he was, and he technically was, even if it wasn't in the way he thought, as he was the one who went back in time and brought Opal back) and for the fact that there was no longer a cure. Having Artemis's younger self be the bad guy, then add on his lie to one of his closest friends—even though no one dies, there's a psychological darkness that I guess must have really affected me, strangely even more than character death. (I had a similar reaction reading the HP series, too. Even though more characters die in book 7, and Dumbledore dies in book 6, The Order of the Phoenix always felt the darkest to me as I was reading it, maybe because of Harry's sense of frustration and helplessness in a world that refuses to acknowledge that Voldemort's back, plus Umbridge's tyranny, and then Sirius's death ultimately proving to be Harry's fault, or partially his fault. Book seven was dark because quite a few core characters died, and the oppressiveness of Harry and the others having to go on the run, but with Voldemort out in the open it was a different kind of oppressiveness.)



FadingLight wrote:However, it does kind of show that good things can come out of really bad things.

Yeah, that's true, and that is worth something. I think I would have liked to see more detail to make it come to life more (perhaps seeing the reactions of characters from the previous books), but I guess Colfer always does try to wrap things up quickly, to avoid giving a sense of anticlimax, which is something an author always has to navigate.
“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8336552/1/Noble-Heart ...Shameless self-advertising, guys! C;

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby FadingLight » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:40 pm

Yeah, if I think about it that way, it does feel psychologically darker, what with Artemis thinking he's responsible for the lack of a cure for his mother, then lying to Holly out of desperation (a lie that definitely hurt her), and seeing how he himself was at age ten. And then
Spoiler:
Artemis figures out that it's a big time paradox, which makes him realize what was going to happen but also made him realize that he put his mother in danger, causing a whole wave of guilt to hit and him to develop Alanits Complex, eventually. Opal from the past only managed to get to the future by following Artemis and Holly, who were in the past to find a cure, while Opal likely would've allowed Angeline to heal if they had done nothing.
At least I think so, I haven't read the book in a while.

So everything turns out essentially okay, but it could've gone a whole lot worse—if Opal had been a bit smarter or less smug, if Young Artemis hadn't had a change of heart, if Damon Kronski's new pit featured real, not holographic flames. Also, I think the book sort of reminds you of what Artemis used to be. He was a pretty good guy for the last few books, but his ten-year-old self was cold, ruthless, and just as smart, and was willing to sell the lemur, despite feeling a whole lot of guilt. It makes you think—if he hadn't gotten involved in all those fairy schemes, what would he be like today? If you mind-wiped him at age of fourteen or fifteen to remove all his fairy memories, he might be a better person than he was at age ten, due to the influences from his family and the Butlers, but he probably wouldn't be the fourteen-year-old Artemis of TTP.
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Which do you think seems more suspicious? An alien-looking craft hovering in the yard of a country home, or a floating doorway with a centaur standing in it?—Domovoi Butler
We can only change the future, not the past or present.—Artemis Fowl II
I'm trying to care, Artemis. But I thought it was all supposed to be over when the fat lady sings. Well, she's singing, but it doesn't appear to be over.—Holly Short

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby Athena32 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:45 pm

I think the Opal Deception was the saddest, hands down, but I think the darkest was the Last Guardian. The Time Paradox would be pretty dark if it weren't for the romance. The Last Guardian has multiple depressing moments, so I think it is darker than Time Paradox.
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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:20 pm

Fading,

Yeah, I think that is another part of it. (Seeing little Artemis as the bad guy. There's just something about seeing the main characters do horrible things, or even be the villain, that somehow make a story feel darker. I kind of had that feeling at the end of The Blood of Olympus, when Leo Nico, actually (Thanks, Fading ;j)
Spoiler:
lets Octavius get killed. It seems like it was the right thing to do, but the fact that it was a very conscious choice to let them kill themselves—it leaves you with not altogether a good feeling, and makes you wonder. Or at least it did me.
You expect villains to do crazy evil things, but when the characters whose side your on do certain things, it's different, somehow.




Athena,

Yeah, I think TOD did have some of the most powerful moments in the series. At the point when Root died, we hadn't yet lost any of the core characters. I think it was TOD that officially changed the tone of the entire rest of the series.

Lol, but weirdly, for me, the romance in TTP actually contributed to the overall dark feeling of the book. Artemis and Holly had become good friends over the series, but the hints of romance sort of added an extra sense of investment for Artemis in the relationship, which made his deception all the more wrenching, and gave his decision to tell Holly the truth much more power and meaning in the context of the story. (And the sense of Artemis's regret and melancholy at the end when Holly says, “Let's leave the past in the past” completed it.)
Last edited by Rocket Axxonu on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8336552/1/Noble-Heart ...Shameless self-advertising, guys! C;

(And if you're really bored: http://axxonu.deviantart.com/gallery/28912232/Artemis-Fowl AF fanart. ;J)

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby FadingLight » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:50 pm

I agree, the romance thing probably made Artemis's lie to Holly more painful for both of them. Artemis because he felt more guilty than ever for the lie and for hurting his friend, and Holly because Artemis lied to her, knowing that it would hurt her and propel her to help, and because it seemed like he didn't trust her to help on her own.

Also, in the Blood of Olympus, I think it was Nico, not Leo,
Spoiler:
who let Octavian get killed, but I agree, Octavian might've been a bad guy, but letting him die was kind of iffy in terms of being "good".
Also, I think Nico was replaying what his dad said to him when he did it, ( “…Some deaths cannot be prevented. Some deaths should not be prevented.”), and you can't really say that's a happy life philosophy.
I said you were smart, Mud Boy. I was wrong; are exceptional.—Qwan
Which do you think seems more suspicious? An alien-looking craft hovering in the yard of a country home, or a floating doorway with a centaur standing in it?—Domovoi Butler
We can only change the future, not the past or present.—Artemis Fowl II
I'm trying to care, Artemis. But I thought it was all supposed to be over when the fat lady sings. Well, she's singing, but it doesn't appear to be over.—Holly Short

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Re: Do you think TTP was darker then some of the other books?

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:25 pm

Oops, that's who I meant. xD (For some reason I have a tendency to say one name when I'm thinking of someone else.)


You know, thinking about it some more, the romance might actually be the primary reason why TTP felt like the darkest book to me. One of the things that gives a book an overall dark sense to me is when things don't all turn out perfectly fine, characters die or they fail to accomplish some of the key goals of the story. Like, in the Pendragon series (haven't read this series in so long, so I might get some things wrong X3), the premise is that the main character Bobby, a “traveler,” travels between various worlds trying to determine a turning point in the society of the world, and stop the villain (Saint Dane, I think his name was) from influencing the turning point so the society falls into destruction and disarray. In the earlier books, Bobby is able to thwart Saint Dane and the worlds are saved, but in some of the later books, in the end, the battle goes the other way, which I think gave the series and the particular books this happened in a darker feeling. In TTP, although they do succeed and Artemis saves his mother, and nobody dies, the major point of failure that is left unresolved in the romance. Artemis's decision earlier in the book has a permanent effect, in that there is seemingly no hope for Artemis in ever taking his relationship with Holly any further, even if he wants to. So the romance was the major point of loss at the end of the novel.
“After all, absolutely no one can help but suspect a criminal, liar, and manipulator of committing crimes, lying, and manipulating. And of course, no one is more aware of that simple fact than Artemis Fowl.”

Opal sets into motion her most diabolical scheme yet, to frame Artemis and turn his closest friends against him. Only this time she has a new calculating partner who knows Artemis better than he knows himself. [Post TAC]

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8336552/1/Noble-Heart ...Shameless self-advertising, guys! C;

(And if you're really bored: http://axxonu.deviantart.com/gallery/28912232/Artemis-Fowl AF fanart. ;J)


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