Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Friendly, spirited debates please people! Keep it clean.
User avatar
lethe_naiad
The Splendiferous
The Splendiferous
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:49 am
Real First Name: Lauren
Location: Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby lethe_naiad » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:51 am

Jibjabo, please read the rules and use proer spelling and grammar. It's not us being Nazis, it's us treating everybody equally, and expecting the same standards from every user. You can always type your posts in a word processing program and copy and paste, or there are spellcheck extensions you can download for firefox.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but people aren't going to pay attention to your posts unless you write them correctly.

Please re-read the rules and pm me or another moderator/admin if you have any problems.
ImageImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Griffar
Commander
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:53 am
Real First Name: Alex
AFC Fan Fiction Name: Griffar
Location: sleeping. wait is that possible?
Gender: Male
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby Griffar » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:24 am

Lime Yay- I'm not one to get upset over words, unlesss, they are actually aimed at me with malice. An it's hard to get angry at people, who are probably thoousands of kilometers away. And if anyone says, something, i don't mind as long as i can have a reason as to why they saidd it...

::Ontopic::

I think just because someones grammer is bad, doesn't mean they are fantasising. They may have all the ideas ion their head, and put them onto paper poorly. I'm not one to judge, but like Sharkie, when someone wants constructive critism, i give it to them, and try make it helpful. I point out things that could be better, without sounding like I'm attacking them, and i greatly hope, other people could do the same.

I hate being hipocrytical, so i can't really comment on other's grammer, and I probably read over it.. I don't see errors, my brain just translates it effectivly, and I keep reading. I do want my grammer better, but it's a problem, that i find hard to fix. Whenever i make a mistake on word, I take note of how it fixes my mistake, and hopefully i don't make the same mistake again.

By the way, is there a spell check for AFC??? I got a pm today telling me I need to clean up my grammer and maybe a spelll check will help. Could we also stop using nammes in ways of a counter debate.

And JibJab... what lethe said before about people not taking you seriously with your spelling, she was right...

I agree, that people who say that they are going to get their book published, but don't even know what their book is going to be about, are kind of idiots. But just because they are arrogant, doesn't mean they don't love writing.. In my first post(which i have now edited) where i am posting my story, i had an arrogant sound. I have changed it, because that's not why I'm writing my story... but even then, i was writing the story, because i loved writing stories.

I'm a good story teller, and I find it great, thaat i can make a big story, and people everywhere might one day be able to read it.

Now on a closing note- Was my grammer a bit better in this post???
Image

I know you love one hundreds and thousands


Your Tears don't fall, they crash aroud me

Her conscience calls, the guilty to come home

gotta love Bullet For My Valentine

User avatar
Voldy
Here's my card.
Here's my card.
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: Yes.
Gender: Male
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby Voldy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:30 pm

By the way, is there a spell check for AFC??? I got a pm today telling me I need to clean up my grammer and maybe a spelll check will help. Could we also stop using nammes in ways of a counter debate.
AFC doesn't have a built-in spellcheck....Firefox does, though.
...but even then, i was writing the story, because i loved writing stories.
See, I understood where you were coming from, but then:
I'm a good story teller, and I find it great, thaat i can make a big story...
To me, that's somewhat arrogant. I don't think it's that great for someone to automatically approve of their own writing. Of course, I like my own writing sometimes, but if I write a poem or short story, I don't go "OMG THIS IS SOOO GOOOOD", because it's a matter of perspective. To me, complimenting your own writing (and I mean you in the general sense) shows a sort of arrogance and self-importance, and if you love to write, then you should not be so quick to praise your own work. I do not see any merit in someone praising their own writing, and it tends to turn me off when such a person asks me to read something they've written. *shrug*

User avatar
Griffar
Commander
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:53 am
Real First Name: Alex
AFC Fan Fiction Name: Griffar
Location: sleeping. wait is that possible?
Gender: Male
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby Griffar » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:27 am

It's not that I'm praising my writing.. I'm just saying, i find it easy to tell a story. some people have told me that I'm good at tellling stories... I wasn't meant to come of arrogant.
Image

I know you love one hundreds and thousands


Your Tears don't fall, they crash aroud me

Her conscience calls, the guilty to come home

gotta love Bullet For My Valentine

User avatar
FoalysGirl
The Techie
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:47 am
Location: Haven City
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby FoalysGirl » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:20 pm

Guys take it from someone who's actually been published, it takes a lot more than a good idea and two passes at it. I spent weeks editing one half page article. I did at least seven or eight passes at it before it was finished and that was for a small scale magazine. (And I'm not trying to come across as arrogant or anything. Just saying from experience.)
"Edwin, what's the plural for Ox?"
"Oxen. The farmer used his oxen."
"Brian,"
"What?"
"What's the plural for box?"
"Boxen! I bought two boxen of doughnuts."

---Brain's stupid in school comedy skit

"I'm the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude." ----Tropic Thunder

"Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock." ------ Buffy season 6

"He was like....Napoleon!" ---Me

User avatar
evil pixie
Sprite
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:14 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby evil pixie » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:51 pm

From what I've read from this thread, grammar and writing techniques are a big part of this debate.

This is the twenty first century, anything can happen. A family's vacation picture can end up on a billboard ad on the other side of the world; a woman's blog about cooking can be made into a movie... Some kid's writing just could be published.

It depends on what it is. Is it written as a personal journal? Then would everyone care so much about grammar? or would they care about the story and feelings?

Books are all about the stories in them. I guess adults have more education and experience to come up with better stories than kids, but overall, grammar isn't what writing is about. If someone's writing is good enough to be published, age shouldn't matter.
I like the word evil. Scramble it a little, and you get vile and live. Good on the other hand, is just a command to go do.-Jodi Picoult, The Tenth Circle

A monkey glances up and sees a banana, and that's as far as he looks. A visionary looks up and sees the moon.-Victor Vigney

---98% of teenagers do or have tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.---

User avatar
BkkprGirl
Kid with the Typewriter
Kid with the Typewriter
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: If I'm online, then I'm by a computer. Somewhere.
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby BkkprGirl » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:14 am

Guys take it from someone who's actually been published, it takes a lot more than a good idea and two passes at it. I spent weeks editing one half page article. I did at least seven or eight passes at it before it was finished and that was for a small scale magazine. (And I'm not trying to come across as arrogant or anything. Just saying from experience.)

I agree. It's not something that a kid who's just writing so they can say they write is going to do well with. When I was seven, I got a short story published in a magazine. It took them two years to get back to me to say "Yes, we're going to publish it," and then another year of editing with my creative writing teacher to actually get published. I was eleven by the time the story came out. And that was a magazine where they were accepting KIDS' stories. Most kids will only go through with that if they're really passionate about it. Normally, the loser kids who don't deserve to be published don't get published, or quit halfway through because they're sick of it.

Also, I think we'd have a lot less of a problem with arguing about grammar if everyone spelled it correctly: It's G R A M M A R, not grammer. If you're on a mac, it should pick up the misspelling.
Image
"Stories are the only thing worth dying for."
~The Unwritten

User avatar
IzzyTehMuse
Applied Phlebotinum
Applied Phlebotinum
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:09 am
Location: The Untempered Schism
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby IzzyTehMuse » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:15 am

@ evil pixie: Yup, grammar does matter, because without good grammar, most people cannot understand the thoughts being communicated. There are reasons for grammar and punctuation, and these rules oftentimes help writers make their point in a clearer, more precise way.

My thoughts on the matter in general.

OK, I personally have zero experience whatsoever. But, from my many readings (and believe you me, I spend an unhealthy amount of time reading about writing/publishing) and from my friend's experience (her book got published....more on that later), here's what I say: Being an author depends on the writer. I use the term "author" to mean a writer that (in my perfect world) deserves to be published. A really good writer. An amazing writer.

Publishing is not a good way of determining whether something is good writing. Bad writing gets published all of the time, just the same as good. If you go to some tiny little press, odds are that your book will get published.

When my dear friend showed me the manuscript for her book...I was hard-pressed to find something positive to say about it. The story was rather boring (It took 2/3 of the book to actually get me interested. And by then, I'm not sure whether I was more: "What is happening next! :)" or "HOW SOON CAN I FINISH? >.<"), the characters relationships were strained at best and slightly creepy at worst, and there were many derivative elements. Not to mention just...not beautiful writing. I can appreciate a little purple prose if it works to vividly paint a picture in my head. This did not.

Yet. It got published. Other authors (in her circle) loved her book! Other people who read it were just praising her!

So publishing does not make your work gold. Therefore, publishing is not the true test of what turns a "writer" to an "author."

That being said, I am a bit put off by some of the slightly elitist bend that some writers take when it comes to publishing. Almost a "How dare you try to publish! You ignorant little weasel you! TRUE authors do nto care about publishing. They care so much about the written word, they will remain humble and unpublished," sort of attitude.

This hearkens me back to my days with Professor Ahab (Name changed to protect the innocent and dearly departed).
Flashback to Izzy's young adolescent-hood. I had just turned 14 and my previous piano instructor had announced her retirement from the teaching arena and passed me on to another teacher who had taught music since ante-deluvian times at our local college. Needless to say, I was a little intimidated.

I tip-toed into his house, shocked to see two grand pianos in the main room. He told me to play a piece I knew. So, wobbly-kneed, I sat down at the piano and played a song I had practiced for a year. Which was George Winston's arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon. Don't know if any of you have ever heard the version, but (at risk of sounding totally full of myself) it's rather difficult. It's hard to play now, much less back then.

I finished. And then was crushed when I heard him pronounce it: "Mush. Just mush."

You see, that was real music. REAL music was Bach. The Classics. Mozart. That was all that real music encompassed. Anything that tried to emulate it now was just tacky.
Do not deem a whole genre (age group?) tacky and irrelevant merely before actually looking at the writer themself.

Much excellent writing is, indeed, unpublished. BUT, much unpublished writing is bad....very very bad. Publishing isn't any less (or more) glorious than remaining unpublished.
Therefore, being unpublished does not make one an author.

What truly makes the difference over whether the person is an author? The writer.
If the writer is serious about writing their tale and loves the written word: it is immaterial whether they get published or not. True writers will seek out counsel and always be looking for better ways to write their story. They're not in it for the "whee!" writing rush. Or for the "Well, I'm writing a novel." They stay with it and are willing to be corrected.

Writing is in the long night of tossing and turning, trying to wrench out that Deus Ex Machina character. It is in the weeping over the discovery of a cliched concept. It is in the tears of joy when something finally works, and works well.

Authors love to write. Writing is much like love. Unless you are willing to work at it, it really isn't love. Merely a rush of emotions.
Authors can exist in both arenas. The published and unpublished.
Authors can be any age group. The old and the young.
All that matters in writing and love is the spirit of the person involved.
*cringe*
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all of those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones[." - Puddleglum, The Silver Chair

"I have had to believe a great deal in God because I have lost my belief in men." -Elias, Noli Me Tangere

"The price of freedom is learning to coexist with that which you hate." -- My
cousin.
Image
*rapes* I love you, Izzy. :P

User avatar
FoalysGirl
The Techie
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:47 am
Location: Haven City
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby FoalysGirl » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:49 am

Guys take it from someone who's actually been published, it takes a lot more than a good idea and two passes at it. I spent weeks editing one half page article. I did at least seven or eight passes at it before it was finished and that was for a small scale magazine. (And I'm not trying to come across as arrogant or anything. Just saying from experience.)

I agree. It's not something that a kid who's just writing so they can say they write is going to do well with. When I was seven, I got a short story published in a magazine. It took them two years to get back to me to say "Yes, we're going to publish it," and then another year of editing with my creative writing teacher to actually get published. I was eleven by the time the story came out. And that was a magazine where they were accepting KIDS' stories. Most kids will only go through with that if they're really passionate about it. Normally, the loser kids who don't deserve to be published don't get published, or quit halfway through because they're sick of it.

Also, I think we'd have a lot less of a problem with arguing about grammar if everyone spelled it correctly: It's G R A M M A R, not grammer. If you're on a mac, it should pick up the misspelling.
I've picked up a lot more spelling mistakes than just "Grammar."
"Edwin, what's the plural for Ox?"
"Oxen. The farmer used his oxen."
"Brian,"
"What?"
"What's the plural for box?"
"Boxen! I bought two boxen of doughnuts."

---Brain's stupid in school comedy skit

"I'm the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude." ----Tropic Thunder

"Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock." ------ Buffy season 6

"He was like....Napoleon!" ---Me

User avatar
BkkprGirl
Kid with the Typewriter
Kid with the Typewriter
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: If I'm online, then I'm by a computer. Somewhere.
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby BkkprGirl » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:38 pm

Me, too--but 'grammar' is one that really sticks out because if you say 'I have great spelling and grammer" you're obviously oblivious to one of them.

I think that the thing that determines good/bad mindset of aspiring writers is why they're writing. If you really love to write, you shouldn't just be writing 'to the next chapter' or even 'to the end of the book' you should be writing just because its a story you want to tell.
Image
"Stories are the only thing worth dying for."
~The Unwritten

User avatar
sharkie
Crazy Cat Lady
Crazy Cat Lady
Posts: 4596
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:33 am
Location: Land of Tweed, Tartan, and Deep Fried Mars Bars
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby sharkie » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:15 am

I don't think spelling really has anything to do with your skills in English. As long as you use spellchecker.

I can't spell, I've one the english prize. Not saying I'm a good WRITER- I'm just saying you can't win an English prize if you are bad at English. But I'm a terrible speller. Spent a whole history lesson spelling 'liberalism' as 'liberelism'. it didn't stop me from building a good clear arguement involving the word though.
*TEETH KNASH* The yellow ducks shall eat your socks in the nighttime
Took Jangrafess out my sig, clearly he doesn't appreciate old respect when he's pulling stunts like that
Raped your sig to tell you, that yes it is! ~AG
Who cares. - Someone

I want to verb your noun

POKEMON BEASTIALITY PWNS ALL (yes, that was me - Jangra)

SORREH, Niki, teal is my color. ^_^ *rape* BOLD FTW. - Voldylicious
i thought you needed new rape from me and i like this color so *rapes* (:
oohhh kittyyy, she's so orgasmically amazing. *rapes*

User avatar
Griffar
Commander
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:53 am
Real First Name: Alex
AFC Fan Fiction Name: Griffar
Location: sleeping. wait is that possible?
Gender: Male
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby Griffar » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:59 am

I'm kind of lost between arguments. But I think the BIG argument is; To be a good writer your grammar has to be flawless, and your spelling has too be excellent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what everyone has been talking about.

Really, What I think we should be discussing about is not only grammar, but the actual story itself. Sure grammar is a big part of how you write a story, but the story is the actual thing people read. Now for a publisher to look at the story,, really, it has to be well edited before they really look at it, but what publishers are looking for really is the story. Some stories don't deserve to be published. And even now, the story I'm writing, doesn't deserve to. But that's not what I'm writing the story for. I'm actually writing it for my mates, and because my english teacher said i should write one to get my mind on the paper.

I agree with what Izzy said. Or at least I think this is what she was saying. Basically, before people think they are good at something they should get some criticism. And a lot of the time it should be true criticism, harsh criticism.

What izzy's piano teacher said to her when she was young, was a good building block for her to be a better pianist. Simon Carrol is a good example of this. Now most of the time I don't agree with the way he says it, but he is true.

A lot of the time, publishers just send a standard message back, with a pre-written message on it. They don't give criticism, on how you could make it better. I know this because I sent an ABC book to a publisher, and they didn't even personally write a message. The reason behind that was, they didn't read it. They admitted it in the pre-written letter...
Image

I know you love one hundreds and thousands


Your Tears don't fall, they crash aroud me

Her conscience calls, the guilty to come home

gotta love Bullet For My Valentine

User avatar
IzzyTehMuse
Applied Phlebotinum
Applied Phlebotinum
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:09 am
Location: The Untempered Schism
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby IzzyTehMuse » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:53 pm


I agree with what Izzy said. Or at least I think this is what she was saying. Basically, before people think they are good at something they should get some criticism. And a lot of the time it should be true criticism, harsh criticism.

What izzy's piano teacher said to her when she was young, was a good building block for her to be a better pianist. Simon Carrol is a good example of this. Now most of the time I don't agree with the way he says it, but he is true.
Well, I agree with your comment on criticism. Criticism is very good. :)
But regarding the piano teacher, that was mainly a portable pulpit against superiority complexes of any sort. He thought that any music that was not classical was "just mush." He actually made me want to quit piano for ever and ever. I know everyone here isn't like him, it just touched a bit of a painful old nerve.
Good post, Griffar. I completely agree with the grammar thing.
:)
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all of those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones[." - Puddleglum, The Silver Chair

"I have had to believe a great deal in God because I have lost my belief in men." -Elias, Noli Me Tangere

"The price of freedom is learning to coexist with that which you hate." -- My
cousin.
Image
*rapes* I love you, Izzy. :P

User avatar
Voldy
Here's my card.
Here's my card.
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: Yes.
Gender: Male
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby Voldy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:04 pm

Really, What I think we should be discussing about is not only grammar, but the actual story itself. Sure grammar is a big part of how you write a story, but the story is the actual thing people read. Now for a publisher to look at the story,, really, it has to be well edited before they really look at it, but what publishers are looking for really is the story. Some stories don't deserve to be published. And even now, the story I'm writing, doesn't deserve to. But that's not what I'm writing the story for. I'm actually writing it for my mates, and because my english teacher said i should write one to get my mind on the paper.
Indeed, the actual story is somewhat more important than the grammar, at least to a certain extent. But when you're talking about publishing, typos, grammatical errors, etc. are, well, unacceptable. If you submit a manuscript to a publisher and they read your summary/proposal, and if there are a few errors in it, they'll just chuck it out. They go through thousands upon thousands of manuscripts, so why should they even bother looking at one that can't even spell properly, or form coherent sentences, when there are perfectly good manuscripts out there that have been edited, and contain no mistakes? It's not a matter of what's right for the publisher, it's what's easy. If you make silly mistakes in grammar, then they'd rather not waste their time with it.
I agree with what Izzy said. Or at least I think this is what she was saying. Basically, before people think they are good at something they should get some criticism. And a lot of the time it should be true criticism, harsh criticism.

What izzy's piano teacher said to her when she was young, was a good building block for her to be a better pianist. Simon Carrol is a good example of this. Now most of the time I don't agree with the way he says it, but he is true.

A lot of the time, publishers just send a standard message back, with a pre-written message on it. They don't give criticism, on how you could make it better. I know this because I sent an ABC book to a publisher, and they didn't even personally write a message. The reason behind that was, they didn't read it. They admitted it in the pre-written letter...
There's a difference between criticism and critique. If you're talking about critique, then I agree. It's very important to get others' opinions on your writing (or piano-playing XD); peer edits help, and there are even writing groups that you can join and you read and critique other people's writing. It's very beneficial to your story. But, as you said, a publisher is not going to critique your writing. That is not their job. If they find your manuscript unoriginal or uninteresting, or just generally don't like it, they're not going to take the time to say why, because they just don't have that kind of time. One can't submit something to a publisher to find out if their writing is good or bad. For that, you need real people to critique every little word you wrote. Rejection is really, really, really common in the publishing industry, so you can't rely on a rejection letter to determine the quality of your writing (at least not to a certain extent).

</long?> XD

User avatar
IzzyTehMuse
Applied Phlebotinum
Applied Phlebotinum
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:09 am
Location: The Untempered Schism
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Re: Aspiring Young Writers and Publishing

Postby IzzyTehMuse » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:29 pm

Thanks, Voldy. That was excellent. except for the piano playing part. *wounded* XD
Publishers aren't there to help you. Really. The best they'll do is make money off of you.
YOU, your friends, and possibly your editor (If you get that far to obtain a professional editor from a publishing company) are there to help you.
Spoiler:
And for the record, I must have told that story really badly. The Teacher o' doom wasn't criticizing my playing necessarily (that came later.....and with a vengeance), he was criticizing the song. And that's what upset me. I'm fine (well maybe not FINE as in :laughing: , fine as in :blush: ) with piano criticism/critique. I'm NOT fine with: Nothing but "Classical" music is truly music. *sniff*
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all of those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones[." - Puddleglum, The Silver Chair

"I have had to believe a great deal in God because I have lost my belief in men." -Elias, Noli Me Tangere

"The price of freedom is learning to coexist with that which you hate." -- My
cousin.
Image
*rapes* I love you, Izzy. :P


Return to “The Debate Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Artemis Fowl Confidential Fan Forum : Disclaimer
cron

Login  •  Register