Abortion

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Mizora
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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:04 pm

A little too far don't you think? Put yourself in the place where you are forced to give birth to your rapists' child. How would you feel having such a burden brought upon you after you've been raped? Don't let the prospect of death scare you, what the mother will feel carrying that burden is far worse. First, an abortion doesn't really count as murder since the baby is neither alive nor have any clue of what is going on. It takes almost 2 months just to develop a brain. The mother will most likely have noticed by then. Before this...all we have is basically an embryo. Cells. The problem occurs once the baby has become aware or can be considered a human being. You can't be tricked by ethics where it does not apply. Murder...is bad but sometimes necessary especially when it doesn't count as murder and the result of not doing it is just a suffering and lost mother.
Ok, I'm going to break this up so I can address your statements individually.
Don't let the prospect of death scare you, what the mother will feel carrying that burden is far worse. First, an abortion doesn't really count as murder since the baby is neither alive nor have any clue of what is going on.
Abortion is definitely counted as murder. It's been scientifically proven that life starts at conception. This "group of cells" as you call it, is nothing less than a human being. You don't change species while you're growing in the womb!
The problem occurs once the baby has become aware or can be considered a human being. You can't be tricked by ethics where it does not apply. Murder...is bad but sometimes necessary especially when it doesn't count as murder and the result of not doing it is just a suffering and lost mother.
This "murder is bad but sometimes necessary" argument is ridiculous. If it's ok to murder an innocent baby in the womb, then who's to say it's not ok for a robber to murder someone to avoid going to jail. The robber could say "I know it was bad to murder him, but it was necessary to save myself".

If you really believe that the "problem" occurs when the baby is, in your opinion, aware and considered a human being, then how can you justify late-term abortions? How can you justify the law that, if an abortion fails and the baby is born alive, you are legally allowed to just let the baby die?
The whole thing is just sick.
Right, that's my answers to bentj96.
I have always been anti-abortion. I mean to the extent of participating in "Walks for Life" where the anti abortioners go on a huge walk through the city and wave signs and stuff like that. It's a great event and I love going on them. There are always thousands of people there and they always film it and put it on the news. Me and my cousins were filmed waving our "pro-life" signs once. We got on the evening news. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
I think it's wrong for adults to push their beliefs on children to the extent of actively protesting. You're underage. Your parents shouldn't be able to use you as a political tool.

If we lost the freedom of abortion in our country (since Mizora and I both live in Australia), I would be worried. We are supposed to be secular. Removing a choice is not the way to go. I agree with programs to reduce teen pregnancy, to educate young men and women, and I agree wholeheartedly with the desire to lessen abortions. But in the end it's not ethical to force your beliefs on someone. There's nothing to stop an anti-abortion woman from keeping a pregnancy.

Do you really think my parents are forcing me to take their opinions? My parents are just explaining the truth about abortion. They're not forcing me to believe them, it's my choice when it comes to choosing what to believe. Just because I believe the same as my parents doesn't mean they're forcing me to. Your argument suggests that we have to disagree with our parents otherwise it means we're being forced to believe what they believe. And as for being underage, at what age do you think girls become sexually active, do you think?
Last edited by Mizora on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:57 pm

First of all, it is not scientifically proven that life starts at conception (as far as I am aware.) And it is not definately counted as murder. If you look at the law in both the countries we live in (you live in Australia, right? I'm in Britain) it is not murder. It is scientifically and legally not a human being - whatever it may appear to you is simply your own personal view and that should not affect anyone else's decisions or the government.

Secondly, by saying that they are "simply showing you the truth about abortion" makes it seem as if they have forced these views on you. I'm not saying that it's a definite, since I don't know your family but for one thing it's not the "truth" about abortion, it's an "opinion" about abortion. That shows that you probably havn't been open to other opinions, which suggests that these ideas were indoctrinated into you at a young age.

And lethe hardly suggested that we *have* to disagree with our parents, you're just making dramatic statements. It is, however, to question what our parents and teachers have taught us as they were probably biased, and to listen and realise that there are other views which are quite possibly as correct and "truthful" as yours.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:43 am

"There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate." Dr Fritz Baumgartner, MD

Now I'm not sure who Dr Baumgartner is, but that's really irrelevant; facts are facts no matter who says them wouldn't you say?

You are right when you say that abortion is not counted as murder either here or in Britain, however there is absolutely no denying that when you abort you are killing life. Whether you believe that it is ok to do that is simply your own personal view, a view which I cannot agree with. If I am not free to express my opinion in the hope that I may change people's views or government policy about something I feel strongly about then I guess I would not be living in a democracy.
I'm not saying that it's a definite, since I don't know your family but for one thing it's not the "truth" about abortion, it's an "opinion" about abortion. That shows that you probably havn't been open to other opinions, which suggests that these ideas were indoctrinated into you at a young age.
The pro-choice opinions are everywhere, so much so that governments have allowed the killing of babies right up to the moment they are to be born. (can you believe it! some people are so selfish that rather than birth a baby one day later and give it up for adoption, they would kill that child?) I believe the only people who have not been open to other opinions are those of the pro-choice lobby who steadfastly hold on to their opinion regardless of the suffering women and dead babies. Have a look at some photos of aborted babies - and if you think that's sick then ask yourself why do you think that? It's not murder, it's legal why would something that's legal be too horrible to look at? If they were photos of aborted animals there would be hell to pay.

As to your third point, we should question what we are taught and make our own decisions - you too, don't forget to question the pro-choice lobby and look at both sides of the argument.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:22 pm

Trust me, I've looked at both sides. I completely understand what and why you believe what you believe. Really, I cannot stress that enough. I do not like abortion but I it can be necessary, and above all I'm pro-choice. Every woman has the right to choose, and that's why I can't agree with people that say abortion should be illegal, or as you said it, change the government's policy. No one is forcing you to have an abortion, and no one should be forced to keep a child.

Secondly, having an abortion the day before a baby is born sounds like urban rumours. The cut off point is around 4 months, I think? Anything past that is only if something very, very serious is wrong (ie. the mother's life is in danger.)

And finally, the "fact" that you pulled out by that professor is from a pro-life website, so of course he's going to say that/mix facts. The embryo (I don't even know if it can be called that at this stage) is "growing," and so in that case it can seen as alive. However, it is not conscious, it cannot feel pain or react to anything and it cannot survive outside the womb. I would notcount that as life, and I'm not sure hat the scientific stance is. Personally you may *believe* that life starts there, but your opinion shouldn't stop other people having a choice.
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Re: Abortion

Postby lethe_naiad » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:58 pm

"There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate." Dr Fritz Baumgartner, MD

Now I'm not sure who Dr Baumgartner is, but that's really irrelevant; facts are facts no matter who says them wouldn't you say?
Well, no, I wouldn't say that.

Because that's not a fact. That's an opinion.

Even if you ignore that, of course you should know who the person you're quoting is. How do you know he or she is a credible source? There's a lot of bull on the internet, and you need to learn about sources.

I think it comes down to the fact that if you don't want an abortion, don't get an abortion. But how dare you use your value systems to tell me what I should do.
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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:19 am

A little too far don't you think? Put yourself in the place where you are forced to give birth to your rapists' child. How would you feel having such a burden brought upon you after you've been raped? Don't let the prospect of death scare you, what the mother will feel carrying that burden is far worse. First, an abortion doesn't really count as murder since the baby is neither alive nor have any clue of what is going on. It takes almost 2 months just to develop a brain. The mother will most likely have noticed by then. Before this...all we have is basically an embryo. Cells. The problem occurs once the baby has become aware or can be considered a human being. You can't be tricked by ethics where it does not apply. Murder...is bad but sometimes necessary especially when it doesn't count as murder and the result of not doing it is just a suffering and lost mother.
Ok, I'm going to break this up so I can address your statements individually.
Don't let the prospect of death scare you, what the mother will feel carrying that burden is far worse. First, an abortion doesn't really count as murder since the baby is neither alive nor have any clue of what is going on.
Abortion is definitely counted as murder. It's been scientifically proven that life starts at conception. This "group of cells" as you call it, is nothing less than a human being. You don't change species while you're growing in the womb!
The problem occurs once the baby has become aware or can be considered a human being. You can't be tricked by ethics where it does not apply. Murder...is bad but sometimes necessary especially when it doesn't count as murder and the result of not doing it is just a suffering and lost mother.
This "murder is bad but sometimes necessary" argument is ridiculous. If it's ok to murder an innocent baby in the womb, then who's to say it's not ok for a robber to murder someone to avoid going to jail. The robber could say "I know it was bad to murder him, but it was necessary to save myself".

If you really believe that the "problem" occurs when the baby is, is your opinion, aware and considered a human being, then how can you justify late-term abortions? How can you justify the law that, if an abortion fails and the baby is born alive, you are legally allowed to just let the baby die?
The whole thing is just sick.
Right, that's my answers to bentj96.
This is exactly why I believe your opinion is affected by clouded judgment.

1) When the "child" is still an embryo, it could really be anything. The only two things that say that it is possibly human is DNA and the mother. A group of stem cells is always a group of stem cells no matter what you say. It is not a baby. That's why it has a specific name.

2) You said "to murder an innocent baby in the womb." It's not a baby and depending on the situation, it may be worse to live. Don't steal that from the mother's and the child. That's unethical.

3) Using a robber as an example is unfair. The robber is trying to hurt others and only hurt them. Abortions shouldn't be allowed for selfish reasons. That's why I said earlier that abortions must be controlled.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:48 am

I would say that Kitsy and Lethe were a lot more on my view.

Mizora- one of the things you have to understand is this.

Nobody, I mean NOBODY, is 'Pro Abortion'. If you are, you are for something like eugenics. That implies you believe it should be used systematically and as a method of birth control. There is a big difference between that and Pro Choice.

And pro choice views are basically this. Everyone has their own ethical views. If you do not believe abortion is right- then don't have an abortion. Regardless of rape, or whether the person just got drunk- women deserve the right to make their own decisions. The difference between pro choice and pro life is essentially this- pro choice don't really force their views on anyone in every day life. If the debate comes up YES- but pro choice people are never going to go out and say "HAVE ABORTIONS". We're saying "Think what you want, and I'll think what I want." What you are saying is "Everyone should think my way."

Also, abortions are as old as sex. People have always done it- there have always been unwanted pregnancies and women have always wanted to end them. If it was illegal, it would just put women who only want the right to a say over their body in a lot of danger.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:13 pm

On sharkie's last note, even the Romans did it. Not quite sure if that adds to the argument, but it's an interesting fact.
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:31 pm

I'm extremly against abortion. No innocent life should be lost.
If you don't want the baby, give it up for adoption and give a couple the greastest gift ever. So many couples want a child, abording it is a waste. As well as murder. If I were to get pregnant at my age [13] (somehow, just go with me) I'd carry that child no matter what.
Even in cases of rape. Or drunkeness. Think about it for a second: that child would have an eye colour, hair colour, birthday, would go to school, get married on day, and have kids of its own. You're denying somebody to live. Literally and metaphorically.

Abortion should only be allowed in EXCEPTIONAL cases. Say a 12 year-old girl is raped by a man with AIDS. That would be abortion because that girl couldn't deal with it, even if she gave it up for adoption, and it'd be dangerous for her, and the AIDS thing.

On most things, I think "DO what you want but don't try to influence me" because everyone should do what they want, like religon, by all means be religous, but don't tell me not to say "oh my God/Gods" because it's my belief to say that. I have my choice, you have your choice. But abortion is something that needs to be fought for because it's mindless murder in my eyes. No kid should be killed because a mother doesn't want it. That isn't a legitimate reason - that's just selfish.
1.3 million children are murdered from abortion in the US alone each year.

Also, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JttSzO2nIgw
It's the truth of abortion. Watch this and you'd never get one.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:01 pm

Why would it be worse if he had AIDs? I mean, she's already probably infected so what does the baby really have to do with it? I don't quite get where you're going with that.

But, as some of us having been trying to say, it's NOT a baby. Sure, it has the "potential" to be life, to be a human being, but if you take that line of argument then you'd probably have to go along the lines of not using condoms as well, because surely that's stopping potential life as well. It's also not "murder," even if that's your *opinion*, it's not *fact*. Which is the key distinction that some people don't seem to understand.

Okay, their future lives would be lost. Let me put myself forward as an example: if I got pregnant now and kept it I would have to drop out of university, even if I did give it up for adoption. If I didn't give it up for adoption then I probably wouldn't be able to go back to uni for my degree, particularly not the university I'm out now which is one of the best in the country. My future would be pretty much ruined, and the possiblity of me one day having a stable life and providing for future children so they too can have stable lives would be almost gone. So there's the mothers life down the drain. Whereas the embryo has no personality, no feeling, no emotions, no reactions to anything. It is not human. It is not a baby. As someone said just a few posts up, it's just a few stem cells. The "human-ess" of it is purely a sentimental image put on by you and others.

I also think you're being very selfish in calling it mindless murder. You need to open your eyes and look through other people's, look how other lives are affected instead of trying to take the moral highground in something you can't understand. If someone kept a child before they're ready to raise a family, most of the time I would think they were being foolish. But the difference is, I'm not going to go tell them that and make them have an abortion. Because I'm not going to go and tell them that they are absolute idiots and are ruining their lives and their child's too, and just how stupid can they be? Whereas you're quite happy to call a woman who has had an abortion a selfish murderer.
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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Opal, you're just proving what I was saying. You said 'If I had a child at age 13, I'd carry it no matter what.'

And I'm saying, fine, that's you're choice. I'm not going to say that's a bad idea. Because it's your choice. But your MORALS are not my morals. And it is a matter of morals. You think that morally it's wrong because you believe it's murder- and I don't. However my views would never get in the way of your life, but yours would always get in the way of mine.

As a woman, I have the freedom to sleep around as much as I want. And I have the freedom to drink as much as I want. At some point in my life, there could be a situation where I got pregnant. (shouldn't happen- I'm on the pill, I'm just saying). For some reason right now in some peoples eyes sex is for fun UNTIL you get pregant. Then all of a sudden it's "YOU MADE YOUR BED NOW LIE IN IT." You cannot have a society where sex is open and healthy if women are always expected to carry children full term. Women are not just mothers, and not only women that want to be mothers should be allowed to have sex. But because most women have sex, some women that don't want to be mothers will get pregnant. Those women deserve the right to say "I was just having sex for fun, I don't want this at all."

If anyone says: "if you don't want a baby then don't have sex" I will just ignore them.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:21 pm

If you don't want a baby, then don't have sex, duhhh. You slut you. (<3)
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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:48 pm

I also think you're being very selfish in calling it mindless murder. You need to open your eyes and look through other people's, look how other lives are affected instead of trying to take the moral highground in something you can't understand. If someone kept a child before they're ready to raise a family, most of the time I would think they were being foolish. But the difference is, I'm not going to go tell them that and make them have an abortion. Because I'm not going to go and tell them that they are absolute idiots and are ruining their lives and their child's too, and just how stupid can they be? Whereas you're quite happy to call a woman who has had an abortion a selfish murderer.
Actually, I was going to bring this up on my last post but decided against it, my sister is sixteen and getting an abortion TOMORROW. She had no boyfriend, she just sleeps around with every boy who says "I love you" (so a week after she meets them maxium. Boys only want one thing). She won't say who the father is, because he told her to F*ck off, and you know why? My sister is epileptic - sevrely. Ever fit she has while pregnant could rip the placenter from the lining of her womb and she would bleed to death. She's having 6 fits a month. Also, the amount of meds she's on mean a VERY high chance of deformities. he doesn't want a kid anyway, let a lone one with deformities in brain and body. And who would adopt a deformed baby? There are very understanding, caring, fantastic people who would, but they're very rare, sadly. The risk to both their lives is large. On the abortion form they've written, under the reason, "Too dangerous for mother to carry on".
Now, I understand even with the epilepsy complecations, an abortion would be the best thing for her. My sister really f*ck*d up her life, she got kicked out sixth form but is going back this year to get A-levels, and is gonna get her life on track. It's the best thing for her. She can get educated, have a life, and have a baby when she wants with someone she loves. And, because of her epilepsy, a baby has to planed a year ahead so the man will want the baby too.
Despite it being this best thing, I still wold prefer her to continue. I cannot deal with the loosing of a life. In my eyes, it's murder. As I said, if I got pregnant now, I'd give up my life for it. I'd get outta school and have it. Stuff my education this is a child, I can always go back to school once I've had it. I have almost too strong morals. I really have no idea where they came from, as I was never brought up anything like it. For a start, I don't believe in sex before marriage. If you want to, fine. I'll do my thing you do yours. (I do realise I am young and my opinions may change, but not likely). Although I think abortion is wrong, and dislike those who get one simply because they hate it/don't care about it, I am not involved with their lives. Now I am.
I won't tell my sister to continue. I can't. It will do her no good. All I can say is she's doing the right thing, (which she is, this is he best discition for her now) and support her.
So don't tell me to imagine what it's like and look through their eyes because I can. I understand it may be the best thing, but I cannot deal with the killing.
As a woman, I have the freedom to sleep around as much as I want. And I have the freedom to drink as much as I want. At some point in my life, there could be a situation where I got pregnant. (shouldn't happen- I'm on the pill, I'm just saying). For some reason right now in some peoples eyes sex is for fun UNTIL you get pregant. Then all of a sudden it's "YOU MADE YOUR BED NOW LIE IN IT." You cannot have a society where sex is open and healthy if women are always expected to carry children full term. Women are not just mothers, and not only women that want to be mothers should be allowed to have sex. But because most women have sex, some women that don't want to be mothers will get pregnant. Those women deserve the right to say "I was just having sex for fun, I don't want this at all."
They do, but in my eyes if you get yourself pregnant you can't just kill it and say problem solved. It's selfish.

Kitsy, please read your bit. Don't just ignore it.
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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:29 pm

It's not KILLING though, it's not something living. Scientifically, something which you pride yourself in, and legally, it's not considered alive.

And it's not selfish- that implies that it's your *Fault* that you're in that situation. And I don't like that. Things can go wrong and women get pregnant. But just because all women CAN get pregnant doesn't mean they all should have to go through with it. Having children is something that you should make a decision about, and if you don't want it then it's your choice.

You even sound pro choice about your sister. You say you WANT her to not have an abortion but you know that it's her choice. That's pro choice. A lot of pro choice people would NEVER want an abortion, or would NEVER want their family to have an abortion. However it's acknowledging that it's their decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Edit: I think that what people do with their own body is completely their decision. For example I believe in legalising and regulating drugs, and prostitution. So before people bring up that stuff in response to this- that's my opinion.
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bentj96
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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:32 am

I'm extremly against abortion. No innocent life should be lost.
If you don't want the baby, give it up for adoption and give a couple the greastest gift ever. So many couples want a child, abording it is a waste. As well as murder. If I were to get pregnant at my age [13] (somehow, just go with me) I'd carry that child no matter what.
Even in cases of rape. Or drunkeness. Think about it for a second: that child would have an eye colour, hair colour, birthday, would go to school, get married on day, and have kids of its own. You're denying somebody to live. Literally and metaphorically.

Abortion should only be allowed in EXCEPTIONAL cases. Say a 12 year-old girl is raped by a man with AIDS. That would be abortion because that girl couldn't deal with it, even if she gave it up for adoption, and it'd be dangerous for her, and the AIDS thing.

On most things, I think "DO what you want but don't try to influence me" because everyone should do what they want, like religon, by all means be religous, but don't tell me not to say "oh my God/Gods" because it's my belief to say that. I have my choice, you have your choice. But abortion is something that needs to be fought for because it's mindless murder in my eyes. No kid should be killed because a mother doesn't want it. That isn't a legitimate reason - that's just selfish.
1.3 million children are murdered from abortion in the US alone each year.

Also, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JttSzO2nIgw
It's the truth of abortion. Watch this and you'd never get one.
You are only 13 years old. It really isn't something you should believe with such an iron-clad determination. You can't possibly understand the consequences of being pregnant. I only say this because you didn't once mention a single consequence. You even said that AIDs would affect the birth. You also called it a thing. Although a bit hypocritical, please try to learn a bit more before posting.

Just like Mizora, you are being blinded by moral. Just because a child can be born, that doesn't mean anything. Nobody said the child won't have any diseases or major problems that would lead to a premature death. Perhaps it may die moments after birth. Abortion should not be illegal, although the government should have strict laws. I heard in New York that abortion rate is 41%, which could be considered mindless murder.

Generally, abortion is not mindless murder. Did it even occur to you that no one likes abortion yet it's still necessary at times?

You said kid... "No kid should be murdered because a mother doesn't want it." That embryo is no kid. It isn't even human other than the fact that it has human DNA. It even has gills for a while. It isn't technically living either. The definition of life is.

life (līf) the aggregate of vital phenomena; the quality or principle by which living things are distinguished from inorganic matter, as manifested by such phenomena as metabolism, growth, reproduction, adaptation, etc.

The embryo has no metabolism of it's own, can not reproduce and can not adapt. Although this will be possible after birth, the embryo is not independent. It can not grow by itself or even attempt.

Another one is.

An individual form of life, such as a plant, animal, bacterium, protist, or fungus; a body made up of organs, organelles, or other parts that work together to carry on the various processes of life.

The embryo doesn't have all it's organs and can't really do any of the various processes of life.

Therefore, using the word murder is unfair and completely biased.

Finally, you can not say you are willing to carry the baby because you don't know how it's going to feel. With being pregnant, is the inability to go to school and continue your life. You will be embarrassed and other girls at school will look at you with disrespect. There is also the question of how will you support your child? Who's going to help? Are you going to continue with school even if you have a child to take care of? There are so many people out there that believe moral is everything, but when it comes to it, that's only a concept created by humans. What is truly necessary should always be a possibility. Morale shouldn't have any reign over that.
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