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Abortion - Page 38 - Artemis Fowl Confidential Fan Forum

Abortion

Friendly, spirited debates please people! Keep it clean.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:04 pm

Last edited by Mizora on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:57 pm

First of all, it is not scientifically proven that life starts at conception (as far as I am aware.) And it is not definately counted as murder. If you look at the law in both the countries we live in (you live in Australia, right? I'm in Britain) it is not murder. It is scientifically and legally not a human being - whatever it may appear to you is simply your own personal view and that should not affect anyone else's decisions or the government.

Secondly, by saying that they are "simply showing you the truth about abortion" makes it seem as if they have forced these views on you. I'm not saying that it's a definite, since I don't know your family but for one thing it's not the "truth" about abortion, it's an "opinion" about abortion. That shows that you probably havn't been open to other opinions, which suggests that these ideas were indoctrinated into you at a young age.

And lethe hardly suggested that we *have* to disagree with our parents, you're just making dramatic statements. It is, however, to question what our parents and teachers have taught us as they were probably biased, and to listen and realise that there are other views which are quite possibly as correct and "truthful" as yours.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:43 am


I LOVE Harry Potter!!!
˙ɯɐ ı sɐ ʇɹɐɯs sɐ ǝɹɐ noʎ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı ¿sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ uɐɔ
BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
"Lol Mizzy. MIZZZZZY. MiZoRa's box. Pandora. Mizora. Muahahaha. Insane, eh?" - Purple_Enigma
An adventure is merely an inconvenience looked at the right way, while an inconvenience is an adventure looked at the wrong way. ~G.K Chesterton
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:22 pm

Trust me, I've looked at both sides. I completely understand what and why you believe what you believe. Really, I cannot stress that enough. I do not like abortion but I it can be necessary, and above all I'm pro-choice. Every woman has the right to choose, and that's why I can't agree with people that say abortion should be illegal, or as you said it, change the government's policy. No one is forcing you to have an abortion, and no one should be forced to keep a child.

Secondly, having an abortion the day before a baby is born sounds like urban rumours. The cut off point is around 4 months, I think? Anything past that is only if something very, very serious is wrong (ie. the mother's life is in danger.)

And finally, the "fact" that you pulled out by that professor is from a pro-life website, so of course he's going to say that/mix facts. The embryo (I don't even know if it can be called that at this stage) is "growing," and so in that case it can seen as alive. However, it is not conscious, it cannot feel pain or react to anything and it cannot survive outside the womb. I would notcount that as life, and I'm not sure hat the scientific stance is. Personally you may *believe* that life starts there, but your opinion shouldn't stop other people having a choice.

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Re: Abortion

Postby lethe_naiad » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:58 pm


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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:19 am

Also known as Dark Star.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:48 am

I would say that Kitsy and Lethe were a lot more on my view.

Mizora- one of the things you have to understand is this.

Nobody, I mean NOBODY, is 'Pro Abortion'. If you are, you are for something like eugenics. That implies you believe it should be used systematically and as a method of birth control. There is a big difference between that and Pro Choice.

And pro choice views are basically this. Everyone has their own ethical views. If you do not believe abortion is right- then don't have an abortion. Regardless of rape, or whether the person just got drunk- women deserve the right to make their own decisions. The difference between pro choice and pro life is essentially this- pro choice don't really force their views on anyone in every day life. If the debate comes up YES- but pro choice people are never going to go out and say "HAVE ABORTIONS". We're saying "Think what you want, and I'll think what I want." What you are saying is "Everyone should think my way."

Also, abortions are as old as sex. People have always done it- there have always been unwanted pregnancies and women have always wanted to end them. If it was illegal, it would just put women who only want the right to a say over their body in a lot of danger.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:13 pm

On sharkie's last note, even the Romans did it. Not quite sure if that adds to the argument, but it's an interesting fact.

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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:31 pm

I'm extremly against abortion. No innocent life should be lost.
If you don't want the baby, give it up for adoption and give a couple the greastest gift ever. So many couples want a child, abording it is a waste. As well as murder. If I were to get pregnant at my age [13] (somehow, just go with me) I'd carry that child no matter what.
Even in cases of rape. Or drunkeness. Think about it for a second: that child would have an eye colour, hair colour, birthday, would go to school, get married on day, and have kids of its own. You're denying somebody to live. Literally and metaphorically.

Abortion should only be allowed in EXCEPTIONAL cases. Say a 12 year-old girl is raped by a man with AIDS. That would be abortion because that girl couldn't deal with it, even if she gave it up for adoption, and it'd be dangerous for her, and the AIDS thing.

On most things, I think "DO what you want but don't try to influence me" because everyone should do what they want, like religon, by all means be religous, but don't tell me not to say "oh my God/Gods" because it's my belief to say that. I have my choice, you have your choice. But abortion is something that needs to be fought for because it's mindless murder in my eyes. No kid should be killed because a mother doesn't want it. That isn't a legitimate reason - that's just selfish.
1.3 million children are murdered from abortion in the US alone each year.

Also, watch this:
It's the truth of abortion. Watch this and you'd never get one.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:01 pm

Why would it be worse if he had AIDs? I mean, she's already probably infected so what does the baby really have to do with it? I don't quite get where you're going with that.

But, as some of us having been trying to say, it's NOT a baby. Sure, it has the "potential" to be life, to be a human being, but if you take that line of argument then you'd probably have to go along the lines of not using condoms as well, because surely that's stopping potential life as well. It's also not "murder," even if that's your *opinion*, it's not *fact*. Which is the key distinction that some people don't seem to understand.

Okay, their future lives would be lost. Let me put myself forward as an example: if I got pregnant now and kept it I would have to drop out of university, even if I did give it up for adoption. If I didn't give it up for adoption then I probably wouldn't be able to go back to uni for my degree, particularly not the university I'm out now which is one of the best in the country. My future would be pretty much ruined, and the possiblity of me one day having a stable life and providing for future children so they too can have stable lives would be almost gone. So there's the mothers life down the drain. Whereas the embryo has no personality, no feeling, no emotions, no reactions to anything. It is not human. It is not a baby. As someone said just a few posts up, it's just a few stem cells. The "human-ess" of it is purely a sentimental image put on by you and others.

I also think you're being very selfish in calling it mindless murder. You need to open your eyes and look through other people's, look how other lives are affected instead of trying to take the moral highground in something you can't understand. If someone kept a child before they're ready to raise a family, most of the time I would think they were being foolish. But the difference is, I'm not going to go tell them that and make them have an abortion. Because I'm not going to go and tell them that they are absolute idiots and are ruining their lives and their child's too, and just how stupid can they be? Whereas you're quite happy to call a woman who has had an abortion a selfish murderer.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Opal, you're just proving what I was saying. You said 'If I had a child at age 13, I'd carry it no matter what.'

And I'm saying, fine, that's you're choice. I'm not going to say that's a bad idea. Because it's your choice. But your MORALS are not my morals. And it is a matter of morals. You think that morally it's wrong because you believe it's murder- and I don't. However my views would never get in the way of your life, but yours would always get in the way of mine.

As a woman, I have the freedom to sleep around as much as I want. And I have the freedom to drink as much as I want. At some point in my life, there could be a situation where I got pregnant. (shouldn't happen- I'm on the pill, I'm just saying). For some reason right now in some peoples eyes sex is for fun UNTIL you get pregant. Then all of a sudden it's "YOU MADE YOUR BED NOW LIE IN IT." You cannot have a society where sex is open and healthy if women are always expected to carry children full term. Women are not just mothers, and not only women that want to be mothers should be allowed to have sex. But because most women have sex, some women that don't want to be mothers will get pregnant. Those women deserve the right to say "I was just having sex for fun, I don't want this at all."

If anyone says: "if you don't want a baby then don't have sex" I will just ignore them.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:21 pm

If you don't want a baby, then don't have sex, duhhh. You slut you. (<3)

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Re: Abortion

Postby opalkoboi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:48 pm


I see you too! XD


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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:29 pm

It's not KILLING though, it's not something living. Scientifically, something which you pride yourself in, and legally, it's not considered alive.

And it's not selfish- that implies that it's your *Fault* that you're in that situation. And I don't like that. Things can go wrong and women get pregnant. But just because all women CAN get pregnant doesn't mean they all should have to go through with it. Having children is something that you should make a decision about, and if you don't want it then it's your choice.

You even sound pro choice about your sister. You say you WANT her to not have an abortion but you know that it's her choice. That's pro choice. A lot of pro choice people would NEVER want an abortion, or would NEVER want their family to have an abortion. However it's acknowledging that it's their decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Edit: I think that what people do with their own body is completely their decision. For example I believe in legalising and regulating drugs, and prostitution. So before people bring up that stuff in response to this- that's my opinion.
*TEETH KNASH* The yellow ducks shall eat your socks in the nighttime
Took Jangrafess out my sig, clearly he doesn't appreciate old respect when he's pulling stunts like that
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I want to verb your noun

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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:32 am

Also known as Dark Star.

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Glow sticks glow when snapped. Why can't my leg?


"How? She gonna blink Morse code?" -Amaury Nolasco (Prison Break: The Final Break)



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