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Abortion - Page 40 - Artemis Fowl Confidential Fan Forum

Abortion

Friendly, spirited debates please people! Keep it clean.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:26 pm

Some courses have a compulsary internship year, but that's for stuff like business management or law, not history. And there are study abroad programs, but they're connected with the university so you're taking the same amount of credits but just abroad.

Student parents have provisions made for them before they go to the university, there's childcare and family rooms on campus etc, or you could do a part-time course (but they don't normally have those for BAs, mostly for further degrees like a Masters or a PhD). I'm not sure what they would do if you really did get pregnant. I think you'd probably have to do the year again if you had to take an entire term off. And then you'd have to pay the fees all over again etc. I'm not really sure. And this probably isn't on topic, but it's interesting anyway! The uni system seems a lot more rigid here.

EDIT: As far as I know, my university doesn't offer an online course. I know they definately don't for my subject (History). There's the "Open University" which is across the UK and is online courses, but it's not quite the same and doesn't have the same weight to it (afaik).

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Re: Abortion

Postby bentj96 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:37 pm

Also known as Dark Star.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:12 am

Last edited by Rocket Axxonu on Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:24 am


I LOVE Harry Potter!!!
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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:43 am

It isn't the same as the man on the street though.

The man on the street- you see abuse, there is no reason for why that man should be hitting his child. You pull him up and you say "WTF." Because there is no possible thing that can make it acceptable.

The WHOLE point about abortion is extenuating circumstances. This isn't someone taking out their anger, or thinking "Ima kill a baby" this is someone making a decision about their life. The thing about pro life is you focus ONLY on the baby. Comparing it to someone beating a child is unfair, what benefit does beating a child bring? Does it help stop a cycle of poverty, does it keep a girl in uni?

So we have a situation where a girl gets pregnant, finds out early on and is like "I don't think I'm ready." But your view is "I don't care if it is absolutely nothing like a baby yet, or that you're only 8 weeks in- and I don't care about your currently very successful life, or unhappy life that having a baby would ruin- YOU SHOULD CARRY IT."

You actually seem sensible Rocket, I don't understand why you can't see that removing choice is very oppressive and very damaging to women.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Mizora » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:01 pm

That is completely untrue, Sharkie. The pro-life movement runs heaps of women support groups. To say that we only focus on the baby is ludicrous! I find it incredibly offensive that you say pro-lifers don't care about the mother's life. The fact that you could even make that assumption shows how little you know about the pro-life movement.

I believe the pro-life movement is equally concerned about the mother and the child. Their concern actually follows the mother far more than it does the baby as the baby is soon dead and the mother's pain has only just begun. Pro-abortionists are never genuinely concerned with the mother, they do not offer proper counselling because to do so would be to admit that what they are doing is damaging the mother.

You say the whole point about abortion is extenuating circumstances and then follow on with a girl getting pregnant and she's like "I don't think I'm ready" or "I currently have a very successful life" or "I am going to have an unhappy life if I have this child", do you seriously think these are extenuating circumstances? If you can abort (or as I would suggest "Kill") a baby in the womb for any reason at all then it follows that you should be able to abort (kill) a baby for any reason. It's either ok or it's not. There is no such thing as agreeing with abortion for "extenuating" circumstances, that's just to try to justify the unnatural state that being pro-abortion is. Name one other species that kill their own unborn offspring.

EDIT: opalkoboi already posted this, but I just thought it might bear posting again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JttSzO2nIgw

I LOVE Harry Potter!!!
˙ɯɐ ı sɐ ʇɹɐɯs sɐ ǝɹɐ noʎ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı ¿sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ uɐɔ
BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:06 pm

Okay Mizora- asking for animals that kill children is stupid. Loads of animals kill their babies- bottle nose dolphins in areas where there are food shortages etc.

Also if you want respect Mizora stop doing one thing- stop saying 'pro abortion'.

NOBODY is pro abortion. People are for not removing the RIGHT to an abortion. Personally I would probably NOT have an abortion but I will ALWAYS defend the right of women to access one. Because women should not have to have sex with the idea that no matter what, if they get pregnant that's them. Half of the anti pro choice is not about the children at all, it's about chastity and decency and you can't see that.

See that high number of aborted 'children', Mizora, so you think they should all go into care? Do yu think all the mothers should have kept them. Because if you think care, well that's a lot of children in care, which is practically a one way ticket to poverty, (talking because of the figures here), and if you think the women should keep them then you can not claim to be anything but oppressive to women.

Women have sex. But not all women who have sex should have to be mothers. Like let's take a women on birth control tablets for example. If she takes misses two, or misses them occasionally (easy to do trust me) they are not 100% effective. But this women HAS taken measures to avoid pregnancy, but because of a small error, she's pregnant.

Here's the difference between a pro choice and pro life group in this situation.

A pro life group feels bad for her- but don't educate her, except with negative propaganda. They say DON'T DON'T DON'T.

A pro choice group (NOT ABORTION) WILL educate her, inform her, and give her emotional support in making the decision. They will advise her if it's not a good idea- they will NOT tell someone straight out to have an abortion and if they go that way they help her in making sure it's the right decision. You have a twisted idea of what these groups are like- and the latter is a lot more helpful/

Edit: and a comment put it well

"And about a million people had miscarriages that year, what's your point?

If the foetus cannot live outside the womb then it is still a parasitic organism and it is the hosts choice to carry it or not.

You claim to want to end the ignorance but it is you who are ignorant of the opposing position, it is not that we do not know what abortion is it is that we support the woman’s right to choose her own path rather than be corralled into compounding the overpopulation problem"
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:10 pm

Replying to one of your earlier posts, Mizora, about aborting just before a baby is due. Do your research, and please do it in unbiased places and not just pro-life places. The "limit" is 24 weeks into the pregnancy. I personally think it should be lowered even more, but there's the law in the UK: 24 weeks. A pregnancy lasts 40 weeks. So there you go, your point is invalid. (I got this of Wiki, but I'm sure there are other places where you can find this information.)

Secondly, on your latest post. Just looking at the way you're arguing shows how ridiculous your argument is - you're purposefully using evocative words such as "kill", trying to persuade your audience using emotion. This is not what you should be doing in a debate - emotions may drive your argument, but you should try and look at it in as much an unbiased way as possible. You also portray as anyone who is pro-choice (your use of the word "pro-abortion" just shows your ignorance) is automatically evil, who don't care about the baby or the mother. Surely someone pro-choice cares about the mother, or why else would they give the choice in the first place? Surely someone who is pro-choice also cares about the "child" because many people who argue for pro-choice do so saying that the "child's" life would be v. bad.

In a debate, you just can't say "Pro-abortionists are never genuinely concerned with the mother, they do not offer proper counselling because to do so would be to admit that what they are doing is damaging the mother." You are making a sweeping (and wrong) generalisation, that is offensive and ignorant and just plain stupid. Anyone who paints anyone who believes in one thing as evil and terrible has no sense to them. Of course they offer counselling, and pretty much anyone who is pro-choice will say that it will probably do emotional damage to the woman. You are implying that anyone pro-choice wants to kill lots of little babies and damage women just for the sake of it. You are completely wrong and your entire argument is ridiculous, for all the points above.

Women should have the RIGHT to decide what to do. No one, not you, nor the government, nor any religion nor any relative or friend should be allowed to take the right of that decision away from her. If anything, it is pro-life groups that are ignoring the well-being of the potential mother. If she has decided that she wants an abortion, and they try and stop her then they are going against what she feels is best for herself and her "child." Whatever anyone else thinks, they shouldn't be able to force her.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:36 am


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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:35 pm

That was actually, possibly, the biggest fail post of this thread so far. Well done.

First of all abstinence.

No.

Why?

You are saying that women shouldn't be having sex if they don't want to get pregnant, which is you pushing YOUR morals on to other people. Society is now a place where people have sex for pleasure. Not for making babies. Even if you disagree with it, that is the environment that people are in. We cannot possibly be in the situation where we go "YEAH GO HAVE SEX" but then "Oh well you had sex, don't you know that's for making babies."

We cannot.

Most women have sex, not all women want to be or are ready to be mothers. That does not mean they shouldn't have sex, they should take precautions and ultimately, if needed, have access to a termination.

Which brings me to the next fail you had. The boy being naughty? Hmmm, except sex isn't naughty. Except there's nothing wrong with a woman having sex.

Also, going back up there. Take this example- say we had a teacher that tried to act all cool and casual "yeah you can mess around in my class" and then, hearing that, the boy messes around, and draws on the desk. Then the teacher goes "What no! You can't do that- detention."

THat's a much more accurate portrayal of the abortion situation. It's unfair because the teacher (representing society) has made people feel like it's okay to do something, only to turn around and say "Huh no, suffer the consequences."

And I'm not even going to take a lot of time on your hitler thing. It's like this word people invoke to make everyone go "oh no".

No it's not a Hitler-esque thing to say. Mizora showed me a really stupid video that illustrated another situation that people would defintely not want to have. You know Sweden, very liberal attitude to sex, they have hardly anyone in care and less single parents. And while I don't love Sweden, one of the reasons for this is the liberal attitude to abortion.

ALSO, interesting about sweden, is that they have more families, less single parents, etc. They have an attitude of "when you're ready." And it works- even if you don't agree with it, it works a lot better than in countries where there is a stigma to having an abortion.

Also- as for the life at conception argument- 60-80% of fertilised eggs are flushed away in the menstrual cycle
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Re: Abortion

Postby Kitsy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:31 pm

First I'll just say that I 100% agree with what sharkie said about sex. You may not want to have sex before you're ready to have kids, good for you, those are your morals. But what if you never want children? Should you never have sex, ever? What if you're in a relationship and you never want children? Does that mean you and your partner are never allowed to sleep together? Women should be allowed the freedom of having sex whenever they want to, and just because accidents happen, doesn't mean they should be FORCED to carry the child.

The problem I have with your view about pro-life caring about the mother and trying to stop them doing an injustice (and with the metaphor of a parent to a child) is that you're acting like the potential mother's are stupid or childish. They have the right to make this decision themselves, and no one has the right to tell them what to do. If they have an abortion and then feel guilty, then they will deal with it with the support that is provided to them. No one should try and guide a woman into making a choice - and pro-life isn't about guiding women either, it's about telling them they can't do something. That's the worst bit - I'm not telling anyone to have an abortion or to keep a child, I'm giving them the option to choose themselves.

The difference between killing a baby that is in front of you and having an abortion is that the foetus is NOT a baby. Scientifically, legally, it is not a baby. You have no RIGHT to call it murder, because it isn't. If you wouldn't be able to do it yourself, that's fine - but the pointeint that I'm making is that no one has the right to FORCE someone to carry a baby. If a mother decides she doesn't want to, how cruel would it be to force her to carry the child?
We generally live in a society that is fairly liberal and that people are allowed to make their own choices - they can choose where to work, what to wear, who to socialise with, how many children to have, what religion they choose etc. To take away the right for someone to have an abortion would be a step backwards into a society where a certain sect of people force their morals onto others.

On abortion being "euthanasia." Sometimes, yes. If the child has such a medical condition that it will not live for very long and will be in alot of pain, then yes, I think abortion is the kindest thing to do. This is not an uncommon reason for abortion. Or maybe carrying the child will be harmful to the mother - that is another reason that abortions are carried out.

The thing is, no one has the right to tell someone to have an abortion or not to have an abortion. There is no one who is "pro-abortion." You say that some people are because they get money for it - no they don't. Here it's on the NHS, and if you take that logic then you'd say that doctors want people to get ill so they can get money. It doesn't work like that. No one is pro-abortion, just pro-choice and everyone deserves a choice.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:31 am

Last edited by Rocket Axxonu on Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:32 am

Rocket, I'm keeping this short. See how you keep having to over complicate things and change your argument, while mine and Kitsy's has stayed the same through out- who's is better?

And also, morals like "don't hit your children" (partly because you have chosen to take the responsibilty of having a child, and carrying it full term)- are clear. Morals like don't have sex unless you want a baby are ignorant- I think anyone that tries to preach abstinence is ignorant. I completely support individuals who are abstinent, but you shouldn't ever preach it. Because in modern western society less people are going to be abstinent than sexually active, and teaching abstinence just restricts sex education.

It is countries with limited sex education, and where sex is seen as more dirty that teenagers are more likely to get pregnant etc. While in countries with a liberal attitude to sex and abortion.. there is a lower rate of teen pregnancy all together. What does that say?
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Re: Abortion

Postby Roxxi » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:57 pm

Okay, I'm going to have to come in here. In my opinion, there's been way too much talk here about what the "pro-life people" and "pro-choice people" are like. Yes, there are many sensitive and caring people of both beliefs. Yes, there are many selfish and ignorant people of both beliefs. There can't be an argument about which group is generally better.

But anyway, about the real issue:

Kitsy and Sharkie, it's not about the moral issue of having sex before marriage and trying to push that on other people. It's not about pro-lifers saying "You have to be like me. Don't have sex." It's about whether or not people should be able to behave irresponsibly when they know there are consequences and then when the consequences occur, being able to get out of those consequences by having an abortion. Everyone knows that when you have sex, there's the chance you'll get pregnant. So just because in recent times in our society people have sex more before marriage, that means that now we should be able to make it easier for them to do so without consequences? What you're saying is that people should be able to do whatever they want when they want and have an easy way of getting out of trouble for themselves. And I'm not trying to preach against sex. Even if someone does do it, they should grow up and be responsible enough to take birth control pills regularly so they can avoid the situation entirely. If they are not ready for a baby, and they're having sex, and not taking birth control pills, and they get pregnant, they should be held accountable because they knew that could happen.

And yes, I believe that inside the mother it is a human being. How can you possibly determine when it becomes a human and when it's just a parasite? What makes that specific limit (24 weeks in I think it was) have any meaning?

I don't think Rocket Axxonu's argument has changed at all. The whole time Rocket has kept with the same thing: that unborn or born it's still a human being. That abortion is wrong because while using your right to terminate it, you're taking away that human's right to live.

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Re: Abortion

Postby sharkie » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:36 pm

No Roxxi I'm not saying that people should be able to do whatever they want and get away with the consequences of it. My main point was actually that societies that have a general tolerance of abortion ALSO have a lower rate of STDs and teenpregnancy in general. Very rarely does condemning abortion and condemning promiscuous sex not go hand and hand. Places with the most liberal attitude to abortion also have high rates of people on birth control.

Besides, even if you think it's wrong, and if you make it illegal, people will have abortions. Because shiit happens. Making it illegal just puts the many women that will do it anyway in danger.

The main point is that your body is your body and you should be able to make decisions about it. As long as something is dependent on your body it should be your choice whether or not it continues. And yes, I think this applies to drugs, prostitution, everything. When things are illegal you can't study them properly, can't regulate it.

When abortion is legal you can look at it and say "hhmm this many people are having abortions, we need tto focus more on *safe sex*" wheras if it's illegal you just don't have access to that information- even though it's still going on.
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