homosexuality

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Should gay marriage be legalized

yes
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71%
no
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Re: homosexuality

Postby levina » Tue May 01, 2012 8:54 pm

So... just to be clear, I wouldn't consider these arguments against the practice of homosexuality itself. I guess I'm just intending to point out the flaws in the assumptions that some of the pro-homosexuality arguments have – 1. That the sexual aspect of a homosexual love-relationship is a given and 2. That because something is natural, it should be acted upon.
1) Well, since we're discussing marriage, in this context it is. With non-sexual relationships we would veering in an entirely different direction in this argument. Do you get what I mean? We're talking about specifically about sexual relationships in here because that pertains to marriage..tell me, what exactly are you trying to debate?

2) No, that's not exactly it..with the gay marriage debate, The pro-gay side is not discussing whether the need to marry is "natural" or not, we're discussing why gay love is as worthy of legal marriage as het love is.

Anyway, you're definitely right about "natural" feelings that shouldn't be acted upon. The thing is, though, that the desire to love and be loved, by someone of the opposite gender or not, isn't just a "natural" feeling, it's a need. All humans have a psychological need for love and companionship, and denying them that need, for example, taking it further and denying then the right to a bond in legal marriage, would be like denying them shelter, food or water. But the natural inclination to judge people or shun them based on that is neither a psychological nor a physical need.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Rocket Axxonu » Wed May 02, 2012 12:22 am

Ello, Rockie. I'll just clear one thing up, discuss the points directed at me, and then move the personal stuff to my Journal. :]
First of all, I don't really believe that homosexual love is necessarily more often going to be just infatuation as opposed to true love.
Yes, that was kind of my point. I guess I should stop debating using rhetorical questions if it gets people confused.
Sorry, I know, I meant to state my agreement with you, but I guess it didn't come across that way. X3
Just asking a simple question: why does the love between two people of the same gender have to be physical?
It doesn't. There are many different kinds of love, and sexual love is just one vastly overrated kind.

I think what you're asking is why do people assume that when two people of the same gender love each other, it means that they're homosexuals? And that has to with sociology, which I'll leave to someone more experienced to answer. :]
Well, I do think people are going to assume what they're going to assume, lol. It's hard to delineate what I mean, because the topic can get so complicated... But I think what I mean to say is, we've been talking about homosexuals loving each other and legitimately caring each other (as opposed to infatuation or lust), as in the ideal relationship between a husband and wife, but why does that love have to have a sexual nature?
So... just to be clear, I wouldn't consider these arguments against the practice of homosexuality itself. I guess I'm just intending to point out the flaws in the assumptions that some of the pro-homosexuality arguments have – 1. That the sexual aspect of a homosexual love-relationship is a given and 2. That because something is natural, it should be acted upon.
1) Well, since we're discussing marriage, in this context it is. With non-sexual relationships we would veering in an entirely different direction in this argument. Do you get what I mean? We're talking about specifically about sexual relationships in here because that pertains to marriage..tell me, what exactly are you trying to debate?

2) No, that's not exactly it..with the gay marriage debate, The pro-gay side is not discussing whether the need to marry is "natural" or not, we're discussing why gay love is as worthy of legal marriage as het love is.

Anyway, you're definitely right about "natural" feelings that shouldn't be acted upon. The thing is, though, that the desire to love and be loved, by someone of the opposite gender or not, isn't just a "natural" feeling, it's a need. All humans have a psychological need for love and companionship, and denying them that need, for example, taking it further and denying then the right to a bond in legal marriage, would be like denying them shelter, food or water. But the natural inclination to judge people or shun them based on that is neither a psychological nor a physical need.
Well, now that you put it that way, I guess I'm not really discussing homosexual marriage as much as homosexuality itself. :\ And the topic of homosexuality has many layers/assumptions surrounding it that have to be addressed before people can move much further in the topic the way I see it. People do indeed need companionship, to be loved and to feel important and needed by someone. But those needs can be met without a romantic/sexual relationship or being married.

On the topic of whether gay marriage should be legalized... I don't actually generally have much to actually say on that. Because, I mean, I understand and respect that homosexuals want the right to consecrate their love by making a binding commitment to each other, and a part of me doesn't want to go out of my way to deny them that. (Really, I have much more respect for a pair of homosexuals who are dedicated to each other than a het couple who are cheating on each other indiscriminately and only married because of lust/infatuation.) On the other hand... partly because of my religious beliefs, partly because of the reasoning I've gone through to try to decide my opinion on this subject, I tend to view it as something overall unhealthy, both for the mind and for the body.

So when I say, 'I don't know whether it would be a good idea for gay marriage to be legalized' I'm not saying it because homosexuality personally offends me or whatever, because in all honesty, the way homosexuals and my friends who are homosexuals choose to live doesn't personally affect me — I just find myself unable to keep from worrying about their wellbeing, if things will turn out all right in the end if they choose to go that way, even if they feel fine now. Like, well, homosexuals obviously don't see it like this, but because of how I believe, I see it this way: if you legalized marijuana, it would be even easier to access than it is now, and so more people would smoke it. But it has harmful effects on people, so they would be better off not even starting — it's like that for me with homosexuality. Homosexuality's a harder topic because the aftereffects aren't all so cut and dried as marijuana.

So... as you can see, my thoughts on this topic are rather unorganized, lol. I didn't think about it before, but I guess in a round-about way I'm channelling the argument toward arguing instead of whether it's natural or not, or homosexuals can truly be in love, to 'is homosexuality healthy or unhealthy?' Because to me, that's what it gets down to. I know starting a debate like this is probably going to lead to a lot of hearsay and all of us making probably uninformed sweeping claims about homosexuals in general, but maybe it would motivate me to do more research on this subject, since most of what I know is hypothetical conjecture based on my own feelings and thoughts on the subject.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Kitsy » Fri May 04, 2012 10:48 pm

But I think what I mean to say is, we've been talking about homosexuals loving each other and legitimately caring each other (as opposed to infatuation or lust), as in the ideal relationship between a husband and wife, but why does that love have to have a sexual nature?
But I don't feel like we're any less close because of a lack of romantic/physical relationship going on in addition to what we already have.

The physical part of a relationship is, I believe, a superficial part of the relationship. Even between a man and a woman who are married, and truly love each other – that is, if they truly loved each other, and something happened and they couldn't have sex anymore for some reason, that shouldn't change their love for each other in the slightest. They can still be emotionally close without being sexual. Sex is a fulfillment of a natural instinct and a source of pleasure, and that's not a bad thing in and of itself, but the sexual part of a relationship isn't the most important thing. The difference between two sisters or two brothers who really care about each other, and a homosexual relationship where the two legitimately care about each other and it's not just the lust that often appears in romantic relationships, is that the homosexual relationship is physical.
From these quotes, I don't think you're quite grasping what the romantic kind of love we're discussing entails. Loving someone in a romantic sense is a world apart from loving someone as a friend or a sister, as you compared it in one of your previous posts. It's a particular type of love that, in the long run, will have some sort of sexual nature to it.

A physical part of a relationship is not superficial at all. It can be, but it's more than just lust when it's with two people who are in love. It's very important, and that's why people who love each other enough to get married have sex!

My point here is that, why should homosexual couples have to deny themselves an integral part of a romantic relationship?

And on to your second point, though I'll just paraphrase what you said instead of quoting: homosexuality it physically and mentally unhealthy, yes?

Now, there is no evidence for that. If by physically unhealthy you mean engaging in male gay sex, then there are plenty of precautions that can be used to make sure it is safe. And what about lesbians? What's physically unhealthy there? As for mentally unhealthy, how on earth is it? Apart from a possibly religious stand point, there is nothing stopping a homosexual being in a steady, loving and committed marriage, or from being a good parent, friend, relative or in whatever career they choose. I see absolutely no different between someone who is gay and someone who is straight (and all those in between.)
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Re: homosexuality

Postby nindra » Sun May 06, 2012 8:24 am

It's a particular type of love that, in the long run, will have some sort of sexual nature to it.

A physical part of a relationship is not superficial at all. It can be, but it's more than just lust when it's with two people who are in love. It's very important, and that's why people who love each other enough to get married have sex!

My point here is that, why should homosexual couples have to deny themselves an integral part of a romantic relationship?
Um... I really doubt that the church/state cares if the couple will have sex. I bet that if you take two asexuals (note: There are romantic asexuals, i.e people who want to be in a relationship without sex) wḧo are same gender, they will be denied marriage, too. How can you prove that you do/don't have sex, anyway?
The reason why people get married are partly also the benefits, like official partnership-status, which means stuff if one e.g ends up to hospital (his/her partner will not be allowed to know about the sick's status, or make any kind of decisions if the partner is unconscious/in coma) and e.g in Finland law states partly how the inheritance of the dead will be splitted across parties (50% goes to life partner))
Marriage is about much more than sex and tradition.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Multiverse » Thu May 10, 2012 9:46 pm

Interesting question, Levina. I've honestly never thought of that before, but I think I can confidently say that I would...

Do absolutely nothing.

I say that because even as a straight guy who finds plenty of women physically attractive, I have never been on a date or had a girlfriend. Partially because of my upbringing and religious background, but I think it also has to do with the fact that I haven't come across a girl I have strong enough feelings for that I would want to start a genuine long-term relationship with, and that's the only relationship that I believe in trying to create between a man and a woman outside of "just friends."

So, if I was gay: I don't believe the desire itself is sinful, since that's something outside of our control, but action is something we choose, and I feel that choosing to act on a homosexual relationship is wrong. So I would just continue the "do nothing" strategy I've already been living by.

Probably not the answer you were looking for?
You're overlooking one thing there, though - it's not the strategy you've been living by. From what you write, I get the impression that you haven't been dating women because you haven't had the right kind of attraction to them, which implies that you would, if faced with a woman with whom you were genuinely in love (for lack of a better term), go for her. As such, your 'do nothing' strategy don't apply at all if you're really in love with a woman.
Presuming that you'd be willing to start a relationship with a woman you're in love with, here's a slight rephrasing of Levina's original question: Would you be willing to start a relationship with a man you're in love with?
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Antilles » Thu May 10, 2012 9:57 pm

Nope. I thought I made that pretty clear in the post but I'll say it again.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby levina » Thu May 10, 2012 10:35 pm

:)
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Multiverse » Sat May 12, 2012 6:44 pm

...Now, the same question applies to you, Multi: if you were older and more confident, would you start a relationship with a man you're in love with?
Well, I guess I would. Or rather, I have no idea whether I would, but I don't think I'd be any less likely to start a relationship than if it was a girl.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby opalkoboi » Mon May 14, 2012 8:01 pm

First of all, I don't really believe that homosexual love is necessarily more often going to be just infatuation as opposed to true love. If non-infatuated driven relationships are rare, then it is because it's rare in very many romantic relationships. As a fine arts major, I know several homosexuals in my class. There's one guy in particular whose been with his partner for several years if I'm remembering right (can't remember how many exactly, but it seems like a lot to me, and indicative of a steady relationship). Two men/two women *can* be very close, I don't doubt it at all. So my question is – why does it have to be a sexual relationship? Two women can be partners in the world, same with men, every bit as close as a relationship between a man and a woman, without being lovers. I consider my sister my best friend in the world, and I would tell her things I wouldn't tell anyone else, and I feel much more comfortable going to strange places and meeting strange people if I have her with me. But I don't feel like we're any less close because of a lack of romantic/physical relationship going on in addition to what we already have.


The physical part of a relationship is, I believe, a superficial part of the relationship. Even between a man and a woman who are married, and truly love each other – that is, if they truly loved each other, and something happened and they couldn't have sex anymore for some reason, that shouldn't change their love for each other in the slightest. They can still be emotionally close without being sexual. Sex is a fulfillment of a natural instinct and a source of pleasure, and that's not a bad thing in and of itself, but the sexual part of a relationship isn't the most important thing. The difference between two sisters or two brothers who really care about each other, and a homosexual relationship where the two legitimately care about each other and it's not just the lust that often appears in romantic relationships, is that the homosexual relationship is physical.

The question then is, is the physical aspect of the relationship necessary to have complete fulfillment in the relationship? We know that a relationship based entirely on superficial infatuation is not all that solid of a base – infatuation does not value the other person for themselves, so much as for their looks, their body. It's based on a physical desire that will only last for that one particular person for so long. Therefore, though the relationship between two homosexuals may not be superficial, the physical desire part *is* a superficial part of the relationship to some extent.

Of course, I'm definitely not saying that's a reason to ban homosexual relationships, because then we'd have to ban all sexual relationships period, lol. (And our species would die off...) So I'm not arguing for or against allowing homosexuals to marry here... Just asking a simple question: why does the love between two people of the same gender have to be physical? Or, maybe I should phrase it from the opposite point of view too – Why shouldn't it be physical, if heterosexual love can be physical?


Ok, so, you don't see the need for sex in a gay relationship? And you don't see why gays can't basically just be close friends? One word: love. Put it this way, say you had a crush on someone, maybe they're the love of your life, how would you feel if someone said "Oh, just be friends. And don't have sex either, why do you need to do that?". Personally, and I speak for a lot of people here, sex is an act of love, and if I was in love with someone I would want to have sex with them. Now, we all have "sexual urges" shall I say, maybe you have a one night stand w/e, that's infatuation, or maybe it's just someone to have sex with, doesn't matter either way. However in a loving committed relationship, which idk if you've ever been in or if anyone here has, sex is an act of love, and yes it's pleasurable but it's an act of love. Gender doesn't come into that. I agree you don't need sex for your relationship to be real and loving ect, look at asexual relationships, but if you want to have sex have it, what two consenting adults do in the bedroom is nobody's business. I really don't see the big deal tbh. Either way, what makes heterosexual love more valid than homosexual love? I don't see why you think with gay relationships it's just infatuation mostly I really don't.
So... when I was in grade school, I was really a tomboy, to the point where I actually wanted to be a boy. This was before I even knew what homosexuality was, or that there was even a word for such a thing, and I have a couple of distinct memories of saying I 'liked' a particular girl or other.
I'm not gonna say anything much to this, but it worries me. I will ask however, if you still have these feelings?
As I've gotten older, as an artist I like drawing both male and females and like the forms of both kinds of bodies (though not from a pornographic standpoint, please don't get that impression of me X3). I won't get into any more detail than that... but suffice it to say, I've always had a very strong impression that, if I allowed myself to go in that direction, I could quite easily become bisexual or homosexual. (I say 'become,' because I don't believe that differing sexualities are something innate that we are both with, rather it is an inclination that can be acted upon or not.)

So, what I'm going to say now is... Just because something is a natural inclination, does not necessarily mean it is something that should be acted upon and make a person happy. There are many, many examples of things that animals do that we as humans with the power of choice obviously shouldn't. A good example is violence – when two animals disagree, they may very well fight, while in our society, we expect that humans ought to have the self-control not to brain each other every time two guys are after the same girl or one steps on the other's ego or something. Another is looks – it's our natural inclination to judge other people by the way they look, to want to pursue people who look attractive and avoid people who aren't. As a first impression, judging on looks is unavoidable, but we know it's wrong to shun someone based entirely on how they look – yet that is often the first impulse. A man's natural inclination may be to sleep around with young beautiful women when he's away from his wife, despite the fact that he took a vow to only be hers, which hurts her tremendously, or even just to spend time looking at pornography on the internet. Our natures and natural inclinations can be very superficial, and not things we should necessarily act upon, even if they are there.

That's why I consider it worthwhile to take the effort to choose not to go down that road, I guess. I know it's good for people to learn to be themselves and follow their interests, but... I don't believe that giving in would really make me a happier person. I feel like I have the power to choose what I want to be, because I'm a human being.


I'm gonna go ahead and ask: are you sexuallyattracted to men, women, both or any gender?
Also, yes, a person's brain is hardwired by birth to be attracted to men or women or both or every gender, but of course we must make the decision to act upon our feelings, much like anything - you may feel the urge to hit someone, but just because you want to doesn't mean you act on it. Now, I'm not saying that like hitting someone non-hetero urges shouldn't be acted upon, I personally don't believe in denying who you are, but that's everyone's personal decision, all I'm saying is if you have homosexual attractions you will always be homosexual and never truly satisfied by a heterosexual relationship, both sexual and romantic. Sure, you can suppress who you are and your feelings but they'll always be there, even if you kid yourself into thinking they're not.

On the natural/unnatural argument:

When it comes to people saying it's unnatural, it irks me, now, I respect everyone's beliefs, believe what you want just don't force your beliefs on another person (which is why I hate it when religious believers try to ban homosexuality, not everyone believes what you do and you can't force your way of life on another person) which is why I think even if you disagree with things like homosexuality you shouldn't try to stop people being LGBT. Let them do what they need to be happy. And of course they're allowed to do that, imo screw society and its bullsh!t gender roles, and its intolerant crap, screw people who think they're better than you because of their privileges, screw everyone in society who tells you 'no', because we are all human, and we all deserve greatness and happiness. We were all born useless sacks of poop and crying, and we will all die as useless sacks of pooping and crying, so let's all just enjoy all the middle bits as much as freaking possible before god, fate or whatever ends it. Anyway, back to the unnatural thing.

In terms of reproduction, yes, it's 'unnatural'. But other than that, totally normal - it's found in every species and has been since the beginning of the human race, in Ancient Eygpt there is a painting of the first gay couple recorded, and one of their Pharaohs offered his entire kingdom to anyone who could give him 'female genitalia' although that's transgenderism and that's not what we're debating but just thought I'd say. Besides, who cares if it's unnatural (even if I don't believe it is, some do cos it's against 'god's plan' or whatever they believe). Do we reject all unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning? They're unnatural, they shouldn't be used.

Also, just adding an argument of my own, just let gay people get married, someone else's marriage doesn't affect you.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Multiverse » Mon May 14, 2012 8:32 pm

...Personally, and I speak for a lot of people here...
I'm not sure whether it was on purpose, but either way that's a brilliant phrase that I will, given the opportunity, use. :laughing:
Also, just adding an argument of my own, just let gay people get married, someone else's marriage doesn't affect you.
Exactly. For that very specific reason, I find it quite silly to be anti-gay marriage.
Homophobia is one thing - it's unfortunate, but if you're genuinely uncomfortable about it, that's an honest matter. However, logic should be enough to convince anyone to leave people alone if you don't get along with them.
I think, by the way, that this argument, as phrased by Heiks, is where the discussion tends to come to a standstill. I've seen no arguments yet to counter it.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Elisa3750 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:46 pm

I believe it's wrong, the bible says its a sin, but I'm not one of those people who is really against it. Let them live their life.

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Re: homosexuality

Postby opalkoboi » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:03 pm

I believe it's wrong, the bible says its a sin, but I'm not one of those people who is really against it. Let them live their life.
Well yeah, if you're against it, you're against it. If your religion says you can't watch Dr. Who on sundays, then you can't watch Dr. Who on sundays, doesn't mean you should ban other people from watching Dr. Who on Sunday.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby cezen » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:54 am

I believe it's wrong, the bible says its a sin, but I'm not one of those people who is really against it. Let them live their life.
Well yeah, if you're against it, you're against it. If your religion says you can't watch Dr. Who on sundays, then you can't watch Dr. Who on sundays, doesn't mean you should ban other people from watching Dr. Who on Sunday.
What if your religion says, implicitly or explicitly, that marriage should be between a man and a woman?

In that case, it doesn't have anything to do with you personally - but about the concept of marriage.

However, to directly answer your analogy: when it comes to religion, people don't care solely about sin in concern with themselves. Most religions care about that morality of others as well.

Which is why if there was a religion that says, "You shouldn't watch Dr. Who on Sundays", then they don't simply go, "hey, I'm part of this religion. So it only applies to me!". They go "hey, the Book of Doctor House says you shouldn't watch Dr. Who as its a sin to watch any doctor other than him. This is a general instruction to the masses. We should spread the word to others so that they don't sin and pay for it in the afterlife..."

Playing Devil's Advocate here. Haven't really had an opinion on gay marriage.
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Re: homosexuality

Postby cezen » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:01 am

We were all born useless sacks of poop and crying, and we will all die as useless sacks of pooping and crying, so let's all just enjoy all the middle bits as much as freaking possible before god, fate or whatever ends it. Anyway, back to the unnatural thing.

In terms of reproduction, yes, it's 'unnatural'. But other than that, totally normal - it's found in every species and has been since the beginning of the human race, in Ancient Eygpt there is a painting of the first gay couple recorded, and one of their Pharaohs offered his entire kingdom to anyone who could give him 'female genitalia' although that's transgenderism and that's not what we're debating but just thought I'd say. Besides, who cares if it's unnatural (even if I don't believe it is, some do cos it's against 'god's plan' or whatever they believe). Do we reject all unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning? They're unnatural, they shouldn't be used.
First paragraph: I could understand this as your life philosophy. But, you've gotta understand that most religions don't feel that way. A variety of different religions consider this life the stepping stone for the afterlife, so they care less about enjoying this life till its over and more about preparing themselves and others for the next one.

Second Paragraph: I think you could come up with better examples of unnatural things to use to make your point. I don't think eyeglasses, polyester, or air conditioning is unnatural in the same sense of the word as when people use it to describe homosexuality.
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@No one: Looking through this page of the thread, I feel like their can be strong arguments against anti-gay marriage. But some of the points in this thread - or at least on this page - aren't cutting it.

I will directly address any weak points some time in the next week as Devil's Advocate. :shiny:
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Re: homosexuality

Postby Parrot » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:10 pm

I don't see the point in homophobia. People are still people, let them live! Did you know a 'psychologist' (more likely a psychoanalysist, possibly Freud, but I can't remember who) said that homophobic people are surpressing their own homosexuality? If that's true, then it's really ironic.
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